SS Flag & Marines

Published On: February 10, 2012|Categories: MRFF's Inbox|0 Comments|

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Dear Military Religious Freedom Foundation,

Okay guys, never heard of you until I read the article today in the AP news. I am however rather deeply associated with military precision marksmanship.

You all need to go out on a date or two and quit this business of a rediculous association wtih the Nazi SS. The Marine’s have used a lightening like SS as the abreviation of Scout Snipers for YEARS and YEARS.

To take your logic to its extreme, people ought to quit using the Autobahn in German because the Nazis built it.

Had I been inclined to donate to you – and that would have been likely had you adopted the opposite position – you have shot that out of the sky. My money will continue to go to American Sniper.

(name withheld)


Dear (name withheld),

The fact that the SS symbol has been used for “years and years” is not a point in their favor, but an extremely damning fact that shows long-term negligence by the leadership. You may not see the problem here but I’m curious if you’d defend a group using “KKK” instead. SS may not be as well known to you, but to Jewish service members this is a symbol of racism, hate, and murder. It’s the same thing as KKK, if not worse. They can say it stands for “Scout Sniper” all day but the only place to order the flag they used is a Nazi paraphenalia website so *somebody* knows this is wrong. The historical significance of the SS symbol is a part of the Marine’s gang-related activity training, so ignorance is no excuse. There are about a million different fonts or styles they could have used for the letters “SS” but somebody chose a Nazi symbol. This should have been stopped by the leadership long before 45 Marines had to stand up and do it themselves. You know that the military isn’t the civilian world and there are rules that govern our behavior and associations. These negligent leaders need to be held accountable for permitting the use of a symbol used by hate groups.

Dustin Chalker
MRFF Non-Religious Affairs Advisor


Mr. Chalker –

I returned from the range today and read your email. I like to think I am a fair minded fellow, so in order to reach an understanding with you I have a few questions to which I need answers before I can respond completely:

Have you ever served in the armed forces of this or any other country? [The later half of the question is necessary as I have had one Marine who had been a sergeant in the Red Army and a Soldier who had been a Marine and then was in the French Foreign Legion] How do you know that one place is the only business from which to buy that flag? Or is it the only place that you have found?
Are you aware that the swastika was also a Navajo symbol which predates the nazi use of it? Should the Navajo quit using it?
Should Europeans stop using the Autobahn because the nazis built it?
Is a simple font change sufficient for you or do you believe the Marine Corps ought to change the name of the reconnaissance and sniper unit in each infantry battalion?
Can you please explain your “the Marine’s gang-related activity training”? Are you suggesting that the Marine Corps is a gang or that it intentionally trains gang members? I am confused by that statement.
I am also confused as to how 45 Marines stopped this. Did I miss something in the news article?
If a hate group adopted the symbol of your organization would you replace it?
“These negligent leaders need to be held accountable for permitting the use of a symbol used by hate groups.” In your mind what does held accountable mean? Cashiered from the service, hanged with piano wire like the nazis did, a letter of reprimand, reduction in rank, a simple counseling, court martial? If so which type, Summary, Special or General?
To what level should we call leaders negligent – the Platoon Commander only or the Platoon Commander and Company Commander? Or the Platoon Sergeant, Platoon Commander, Company First Sergeant and Company Commander? Of how many battalions? Perhaps all those 4 leaders plus the Battalion Sergeant Major and the Battalion Commander? If not enough, those 6 plus the Marine Expeditionary Unit [MEU] Commander and his Sergeant Major? Or since Scout Sniper Units have been using the SS symbol for more than a decade that I know of, should all infantry commanding officers past and present be called to task for this?
When you state there are rules that govern our associations, you are quite correct, there are. Do you have any evidence that any of the Marines in that photograph have memberships in nazi or white supremist organizations? Are you saying that the use of a symbol for a completely different organization constitutes membership in one of those hate groups?

I offer the thought that fundamentalist muslims – islamists if you prefer – view the Cross as a hateful emblem. Certainly those of us who have battled islamists view the green crescent flag with at least a raised eyebrow. And islamists don’t have to take a back seat to Hitler or Stalin for the number of innocents they have slaughtered over the past 1400 years. The soviets – as well as the communist Chinese – certainly have outdone the nazis as to the number of their own citizens they have murdered [69 million and at least 28 million respectively]. Yet no one seems to raise a Hue and Cry over the use of communist symbols. Heavens, ‘Che’ T-shirts are the rage and he was as cold blooded a communist murderer as any of the others; he only lacked the time to kill more. Do you raise an objection to his image too?

Before I can answer your question about the KKK – to which KKK do you refer? The original, non racist post civil war anti-Republican organization or the later, recreated, turn of the century racist organization?

I am old enough to have had a father who battled the nazis in one war and communists in 4 wars – a total of 5 wars and he brought back scars from 3 of the 5. I have spent 28 of 35 years of my adult life in the military service of this country. I have heard more than one shot fired in anger.

My point? When do we let this go?

I really am eager to receiver your answers to my questions. Oh, another one – at what point does freedom of speech enter into the equation? Doesn’t the use of an ‘SS’ symbol by an organization that supports and defends the Constitution count for anything? When do we get to co-opt that symbol back from evil? If the peace movement took Churchill’s V for Victory finger symbol can’t we take something over?

Relative to your first sentence, given the deplorable state of education in this country [especially history and the Constitution], it is easily understandable that none of the enlisted Marines and a majority of Marine officers wouldn’t know that the ‘SS’ symbol was in any way related to the nazi SS. A pop history quiz to officer candidates last December where I work revealed that all 24 of them thought we had fought the Mexicans in the War of 1812, half thought the Germans were our allies in WWII and one thought the British won the American Civil War.

Jewish Marine snipers I have known [2, it is a small community] didn’t object to the use of the SS symbol as representative of Scout Snipers and indeed wore the same SS/HOG T-shirts everyone else in the unit did. I assure you that one of those two Marines was big enough, tough enough and skilful enough to have made a real issue of it had he chosen to.

Looking forward to you thoughts,
(name withheld)


Dear (name withheld),

First, apologies for the delay. I put in 12 hours today training for a new career in financial services, which leads me to your first question:

(Forgive the choppiness and lack of flow, but I’m responding point-by-point so I won’t be making any insightful transitions from topic-to-topic.)

1. Yes, I was a medical sergeant in the Army until 3 months ago. I served overseas in Iraq and South Korea over 7.5 years of Active Duty (plus 2 in Reserves).

2. I am basing that assertion on the research of MRFF’s senior researcher, Chris Rodda. The only source online selling this particular flag is this website http://www.totls.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16:close-out-corner&catid=1:home&Itemid=30

3. I don’t believe that the Navajo (or Eastern religions) should concern themselves with Nazi perversions of their sacred symbols. The US government, however, should avoid any appearance of affiliation with hate groups and has existing regulations governing the matter.

4. No, the Autobahn is not a symbol that communicates affiliation with a group identity. It’s a road.

5. Personally I think a font change would suffice. SS also means “Social Security” and probably some other innocent stuff. The Nordic rune stylization is what carries the negative white supremacist connotations.

6. “the Marine’s gang-related activity training” Sorry, I didn’t realize that my wording was ambiguous. Let me expand the phrase: “training which Marines receive educating them on gang-related activity as a part of EO or gang awareness” The Army gets the same training and I’ve seen dozens of the presentations (death by Powerpoint!). With a quick search I found one such presentation from Yuma that refers to the SS on slide 12 http://www.yuma.usmc.mil/services/eo/documents/tattoos.ppt

This issue has come up a few times over the last decade (on a smaller scale) and weak corrective actions have been partially implemented. For instance, we’ve got reports that it’s on the prohibited tattoo list and EOL training began including these slides for EO leaders.

7. MRFF only engages an issue when a service-member (or in this case, a group of 45 Marines) files a complaint with our organization. The group of Marines in this case consist of 42 Christians, 2 Jews, and an atheist. I have no comment on whether they may or may not have begun this endeavor by walking into a bar.

8. I don’t think so. I wouldn’t. We had it first, and screw them.

9. I am not personally familiar with the regulatory penalties or precedents in this particular case. When I say “held accountable”, I mean that a fair and judicious decision should be reached following an impartial investigation – and under public scrutiny to prevent “the good ole boys” system from protecting the guilty.

10. I don’t believe that shit should roll any farther downhill than the commanders who had 1) knowledge of the matter and 2) authority to stop it. NCO’s in the Army don’t have the authority to write policy so I’m not 100% sure if I’d support action against the NCO’s involved. An impartial investigator would have to look at precedent in similar cases, I suppose.

11. Regulations don’t merely prohibit symbols on the premise that they constitute membership, but because they can convey *the appearance* of membership. That’s all it takes to cross the line. The tattoos in particular convey an appearance of affiliation with white supremacist groups (which of course will be misinterpreted more readily on some folks than on others).

I happen to find Che t-shirts and paraphernalia repugnant. Americans have the right to wear that crap, and I have the right to disassociate with such ignorant and/or morally depraved people. I would personally object to government displays of this kind of stuff, but that’s not within the scope of MRFF’s mission as a non-profit charity.

In the unlikely event that a unit had a name with the initials KKK, it would certainly be inadvisable to use them as a tattoo or flag, right? Due to name saturation, those are much more well-known in our culture and the font/stylization isn’t even relevant. A name change would probably be in order. I simply used that example to illustrate the principle that negative connotations should be avoided – both because it’s already in the existing regulations and it’s just sensible. I suppose your point was that other connotations can exist. That doesn’t make it sensible to get a KKK tattoo and tell people it just means you’re an anti-Republican. By the same principle, it’s insensible to use common white supremacist symbols and necessitate further elaboration.

Your old man sounds like a bad ass. I hope he got to live out a peaceful life with his family when it was all over. War was a different animal in those days, wasn’t it?

It might be easier to “take the symbol back” if white supremacists weren’t still using it. There’s way more of them than there are of Scout Snipers, and Scout Snipers don’t have public visibility to make people aware of their “new meaning.” Maybe this can be the catalyst enabling them to do so! Maybe a movie could do it by having Scout Snipers shoot the hell out of some Nazis. I don’t know.

The Constitution exists to limit government and express the natural rights of the citizens which government cannot infringe upon. Freedom of speech is the individual right of every citizen. That’s why white supremacists can wear SS tattoos and we can’t ask the government to stop them. But the actions of the government itself are subject to limitation, and US service members are representatives of the US government. Regulating the symbols used by the government is appropriate and Constitutional.

We’ve heard from some Jewish Marines on the topic. As I mentioned, two were involved in the initial complaint and a few more have emailed in on both sides. Although I think Jewish people will lean toward our position due to increased knowledge of historical significance and possibly the emotional context, I also know that being Jewish doesn’t necessarily give them any more perspective on the existing legal regulations, nor does it endow them with a particular political view on internal regulation of government speech/symbols. I expected opinions to be mixed and that’s pretty much what we’ve seen. I have as much respect for their disagreement as anyone else’s but it doesn’t really sway our position.

Whew! I’ve got another 12-hour training session in the morning. Don’t let that stop you from responding in full, just expect a slight delay from my end.

It has been a pleasure,
Dustin Chalker
MRFF Non-Religious Affairs Advisor

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