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Re: Death is too good for you (with responses)

Published On: June 6, 2012|Categories: MRFF's Inbox|1 Comment|

Hey Mikey, apparently you ate it!  Mikey eats anything.

I dislike being referred to as a detractor – a nonsupporter, yes, that is okay.  The word detractor is a word worse than your position on VMFA-122.  It would be interesting to know what percentage of military you actually truelly represent.  The cause sounds great, but your implementation is less than admireable.  What The Marine Corps did for VMFA-122 and all of who served and are proudly serving in that squadron have been viciously and unfoundedly attacked by your input.  It is obvious that you are totally out of contact with the reality of military service, if you even were.

There is nothing attacking religious freedom in this issue.  The squadron was named after a Chance-Vought aircraft and never, until you and other boneheads raised the issue, any religious intent or purpose.  You speak about this possibly raising hatred around the world.  Wake-up, this will in no way affect how the radical islamic element thinks of us.  They preach and teach that we are infidels and our only purpose in life is to die at their hand.  Your supposed rant will in no way change that.

In my opinion, after hearing about your action regarding the Marine Corps and studying your website, you have convinced me that your only purpose in life is make a bundle of money, like otther media evangelists have done to date.  You are only intersted in using seneitive subjects to improve your wealth and ego.  I hope your evangelistic tent burns down around you and that God strikes you and leaves a great scar – death is to good for you but lasting pain and discomfort would serve a better purpose.

I am a VMF-AW-122 Crusader veteran and will always be so.  While you suggest you are speaking for military freedoms, you don’t speak for the many military veterans and active duty that I know.  You would serve us better as a mine sweeper or rpg decoy.

[name withheld]

A response from MRFF supporter Rick Baker

Hi (name withheld),

Mikey is up to his belt buckle with correspondence and other issues right now. I hope you don’t mind me sitting in  for him.   I’m an MRFF Volunteer, one of many who try to insure  that everyone gets a courteous and prompt reply to their communications.

It is my belief that you have misjudged Mikey and MRFF primarily for your love and respect of the Corps and your involvement in it.

You must remember that Mikey’s involvement was not the first time the VMFA-122 squadron’s unit identification was changed.. It was changed for cause  by a command decision which felt that the term “Crusader”  and Christian Cross symbol were pretty clear cut violations of  Supreme Court Rulings (Lemon Vs. Kurzman 1971)  in which the court held that the government, including the armed forces and public education, may not, in the course of their duties, favor, elevate, prefer, recommend or proselytize one religion over another or religion over non-religion.

Later another commander, oblivious to this decision, once again reinstated the design.

You would be naive for you to believe that there is nothing attacking religious freedom in this issue.  The term “Crusader” in conjunction with a cross symbol
and shield are certainly indicative of Christian lore and the Crusades and demonstrate a predilection for Christianity.  It would therefore be a direct affront to troops of Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Baha’I and other faiths and non-beliefs such as Agnosticism and Atheism.

Think of looking at it this way. A Marine fighter unit paints a crescent moon and star symbol on the aircraft and the term “Allah is Great.”  Your feelings would be somewhat different. You would feel like some of our troops do when viewing the cross.

It is up to strictly religious neutral organizations such as MRFF to be the guardians of religious freedom for all Armed Forces members not just the majority religion even though 96% or so of our outfit are Christian.

America was founded as a secular pluralistic nation in which all religions and non-beliefs may flourish but none dominate.  This means Christianity does not get a leg up because of it’s majority.

MRFF is not as concerned with the squadron logo raising hatred around the world as it is in Islamic nations in which American troops are engaged.  Our concern is when that added venom is translated into escalated vitriol causing more death and destruction.

You talk of our “vicious and unfounded” attack on on the squadron.  How does that square with your:”I hope your evangelistic tent burns down around you and that God strikes you and leaves a great scar – death is to good for you but lasting pain and discomfort would serve a better purpose.” Sounds pretty vicious to me.

In any case I can understand misguided anger, especially from a former member of the squadron. Let me thank you for your service to America and hope we can focus our anger on the enemy and not each other.

I can appreciate the comradeship and protective feelings for one’s unit. I am a former Air Force officer and rescue pilot, flying two consecutive combat tours in Vietnam.  I didn’t spend a lot of time worrying about the enemy then but facing my crew chief if I got back with any battle damage to his “baby ” (CH-3 Jolly Green Giant) was pure hell.
Thanks for your note. I’ll check and see what Mikey’s eating for dinner  and let you know.

Rick Baker
USAF/MRFF


A response from MRFF Advisory Board member Joan Slish

Dear (name withheld),

When you send an email to Mikey at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), it is viewed by the Board, Advisory Board, volunteers and supporters of MRFF. I am on the Advisory Board and an ordained minister in the Assemblies of God.

We are NOT anti-Christian.  We have the support of the California Council of Churches/IMPACT with 5,500 churches, military Chaplains, retired and active duty military personnel, members, volunteers and individual supporters that are Christian. In fact, 75% of MRFF are Christians.  Of all of our clients, 96% are Christian.

Mikey, who is Jewish, is the founder and face of MRFF and the death threats and bodily harm, all in the name of God, against him reflect on the rest of us. I am deeply hurt that a Christian would write such vitriolic words, whether or not it was a deliberate attack on his religion. Christians and people like you feel that you are safe spouting off anti-Christian garbage to a Jewish person and are in no danger of being called out for it.

Christians have to remember that Jesus was Jewish and in denigrating His people, we are denigrating Him. For God says-
“I will bless those that bless you, and curse those who curse you” (Genesis 12:1-3).

As to the name “Crusaders”; just because the aircraft was called that doesn’t mean that the Crusaders shield had to be painted on the tail against the law. If we follow your logic, when the Marines went into the Vietnam War on September 1, 1967, they were flying the F-4B “Phantom” jet and the Crusaders shield on the tail should have been replaced by a logo depicting a Phantom. If you can’t see this Crusader shield as a religious symbol then you don’t know the history of Christians and the Crusades.
When the VFM-122 was preparing to deploy to Iraq in 2008, Lt. Col. William Lieblein changed the name back to the ‘Werewolves’ stating that “The notion of being a crusader in that part of the world doesn’t float.”

There was already a steady stream of Christian military who took it upon themselves to now make our war in the Middle East a Christian Holy War. They passed out bibles against military law, spray painted crosses on Mosques and had a Bradley tank with “Jesus Killed Mohammed” painted on the side in Arabic. (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488) No wonder they hate us even more.

We are not fighting a Holy War but to destroy Al-Qaeda – the fringe, militaristic extremists of the Muslim religion and to have our Marines flying jets with the “Crusader” logo on the tail wing is nothing more than the Christian religion stating that we are trying to destroy the Muslim religion. Lt. Gen. Terry Robling was correct in changing it back to the “Werewolves” because our soldiers are in more danger than ever before due to this.

Our secular military is not and cannot fight a religious war under our Constitution.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” (First Amendment)

We fight to keep that separation between state and church as wide as it should be and that includes the use of any religious symbol used by our secular military because we have soldiers that are not Christians and some atheists.

You are so wrong about Mikey gaining wealth through MRFF. We depend upon donations and are not even close to the “evangelistic tent” you make us out to be. The money that comes in goes out to help the soldiers and the costs are high to do this.

“I hope your evangelistic tent burns down around you and that God strikes you and leaves a great scar – death is to good for you but lasting pain and discomfort would serve a better purpose.”

I find this type of response normal from the Christians who want to kill or harm people that disagree with them. This is so anti-Christian. Show me one place in the New Testament where Jesus – the Prince of Peace – tells us to kill those we don’t like. There is none. It’s strange that Christians have to live in the Old Testament to justify their un-Christ like behavior and use David as their template.
“You would serve us better as a mine sweeper or rpg decoy.”

My friend’s son was killed in Iraq by a direct hit from an RPG. I find this statement highly offensive and disgusting!

If you are a Christian- and I assume you are because you have asked God to do your dirty work against a person and group you don’t like – then I suggest you get down on your knees and ask forgiveness. You have painted a broad brush against Mikey and MRFF. You have passed judgment on us when you really only skimmed the surface of the MRFF website. And, you have no clue as to who Jesus really is.

May God have mercy on you,

Pastor Joan


A response from the detractor with line-by-line response from Pastor Joan (in italics)

Joan, thank you for your response.  You, as I, have the right to an opinion.  For many years I have gone with the thought that opinions are like rectal orifices – everybody has one.

Agreed.

I noticed that you ignored the bodily harm and death threats you made and are trying to deflect it to other things. We didn’t forget those hateful words you said nor will we.

I would point out several points in your email response that causes me worry regarding the intelligence of those supporting your cause.

So you can stop worrying about the intelligence of our supporters, here are just a few.

Mikey Weinstein – Honor Graduate of the USAFA – Air Force JAG for 10 years – Legal Counsel in the White House under Ronald Reagan and General Counsel to two-time Presidential candidate Ross Perot.

Ambassador Joseph Wilson – the last one to see Saddam Hussein alive.

Edie Disler – Lt. Col. (retired)

Glen Doherty – Navy Seal

Robert S. Dotson – Brigadier General (retired)

Robert T. Herres – Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Gov. Richard Lam – 3 term Governor of Colorado

Bobby Muller – Nobel Peace Prize winner

George Reed – ex-Director of command and Leadership Studies at the U.S. Army War College

David J. Scott – USAF Major General (retired)

A.A. “Tony” Verrengia – USAF Brigadier General – Master Navigator

John Whiteside – Senior Command Air Force Wings – Naval Aviator Wins – Distinguished Flying Cross

If you think you are more knowledgeable than the above distinguished military personnel (on whom we rely), about the illegal use of the Crusader logo under the law, I’m afraid that it is you that lack intelligence.

First, where did “re;Death I Too Good For You” come from?  Certainly not the subject line of my email.

No, it wasn’t in your subject line because you left it BLANK. Some computer systems won’t let you send an email with a blank subject line. Mikey used YOUR very own words because it summed up your email.

Second, there is no referance to religion other than that brought up by your organizations statements in the published report.  MRFF established slanderous religious accusations.

MRFF DOESN’T act on its own. We acted at the request of the Marines that contacted us concerning this blatant blending of church and state.

Third, the use of the name and symbol “Crisaders” was in no way a religious referance and within the military, especially the United States Marine Corps.

It may not have been in the past but to take that name into the Middle East is wrong, even according to Lt. Col. William Lieblein –
“The squadron, based in Beaufort, S.C., used the Crusaders symbol from 1958 to 2008, when Lt. Col. William Lieblein pointed out that imagery invoking the Christian conquest and colonization of Muslim nations during the Middle Ages was counterproductive to the U.S. presence across the Arab and Islamic world.

“The notion of being a crusader in that part of the world doesn’t float,” he said, ordering the change to “Werewolves,” as reported by the Beaufort Gazette at the time.”
I’ve never seen a sword that has a sharp edged point toward the one holding it, so your explanation doesn’t make sense. It’s a cross.

MRFF has an apparent visual problem in that the symbol is not a red cross within the shield – it is a sword.  Every Marine officer and NCO has a sword as part of their uniform.  Is that also considered a threat to some radical extremist?

It’s a cross! No one can fight, let alone hold, this so called “sword.”

The muslims I know don’t find this offensive.  What they find offensive is whacko do-ggoders speaking for them.  Really, most of them are literate and are totally able to speak for theirselves.

Yeah, right! We have Muslim soldiers that say otherwise.

Reza Aslan – one of the nation’s. most respected experts on Islam and the Middle East, a scholar and media consultant on issues of religion and politics and author of the internationally acclaimed No god but God: the Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam – is on the Advisory Board of MRFF. I think she knows more about this subject than you do.

where was your cause not persued when the US battled the Japanese Budest or the non-religious element of the Nazi cause?

You are joking, right? Mikey wasn’t even born at this time! MRFF wasn’t founded until 2005! So much for your checking out our website.

Another area of your ignorance of the facts is that the F8U Crusader fought in Viet Nam along side many other units of the Marines, Navy and Air Force.  Somewhere in each of those squadrons, there were many symbols and references to the type of aircraft, their specific purpose and their organizations.  I do know that one F4-Phantom did have a symbol suggesting and unseen attacking force.

I’ll give you this one. My original research did not mention the Crusader

My email did not accuse your cause as anti-christian.

You implied it.

I, as a Christian, find your stance on this issue to be greatly offensive.

If you find this offensive, then you are also finding the Constitution offensive. Under the Constitution we cannot mix religion with state (military). Period!

And, don’t forget, Mikey is a JAG – a military lawyer! He knows military law better than you do and he wouldn’t have acted on the behave of the soldiers that contacted us is there wasn’t a problem. Do you see that?

In my opinion, it is a direct religious oriented attack on my squadron, VMFA-122, the Marine Corps and the uniform I wore to protect your organizations right to exist.

That’s you opinion. Not the opinion of the military.

Personnally, I would care if you worshiped goats.  That is irrevalvent to the issue.  For discussion purpose, please stay on subject.  Once you leave the discussion thread, I stop reading and listening.

So?

I am greatly sorry for you friends loss of her son.  As active and veteran members, each person in uniform is our “brother” and their loss more greatly affects us than friends or family.  Each one lost in battle or in the process of doing the assigned duty is our dearest pain.  I take that to the level of honor details for veterans, active or otherwise, be they Marine or other service.  I also try to attend every Hero’s Welcome in our area that I can – be that a mug and hug or a funeral.

Thank you.

I had no idea as to Mikey’s religion.  However, among my Jewish friends, his stand on this issue is demeaning to their religion.

So? It’s our SOLDIERS– including Jewish ones – that are concerned about this. That’s all that matters to us.

As for your affiliation with the religious support of Californians, I am not impressed.  Remember, California gave Jane Fonda her leverage to go to North Vietnam and cause serious harm to our POW’s.  I have personally know two who suffered by the work of Californias daughter.  “Hanoi Jane”, as she is well known, would have been a great member of your cause.  I would not be surprised to learn that MRFF has or will do something similar.

Oh, please! We are nothing like her!

One last thought!  Take a look at the symbol of the Werewolves – I have one of the Korean war patches showing the Wolf riding a whiskey bottle as he attacks the enemy with his index finger raised.  What will MRFF do about that?  That is worse than your position on Crusaders.

We don’t care about other patches. AGAIN, we only care about the mixing of religion and the military.

Have a nice day.  Enjoy your freedom to be consciously ignorant.  I served to insure that right and I did it as a Crusader, and damn proud of it.

It is not I who is “consciously ignorant.”

Thank you for your service.

(name withheld)

Pastor Joan


A response from MRFF Advisory Board member Mike Farrell

Dear Mr. (name withheld),

As a member of MRFF’s board of advisors, I’ve had the displeasure of seeing a copy of your unfortunate message.  I say ‘unfortunate’ because it is not only rude and obnoxious, as was clearly your intention, but it exposes your ignorance, which was probably not intentional.

First, I’ll have to hazard a guess about the meaning of your identifying yourself as “a VMF-AW-122 Crusader veteran.”  My guess is that whatever the status you claim, you were not an officer.  I make that assumption because your spelling is utterly atrocious.  I would think any military officer would have had enough education to be able to put together a string of words – even words as ill-intended and ill-informed as yours – that were, at a minimum, correctly spelled.

Assuming then, that you hail from the enlisted ranks, or the ‘grunts,’ as we called them, I’ll further assume that the lack of education demonstrated by your ineptitude with the language is also responsible for your apparently complete ignorance of history.   The fact that an aircraft once carried the name Crusader does nothing to justify – in fact has little to do with – the inappropriateness of the use of the term today.   Insensitivity from a less aware past can’t be expected to vindicate a stupid decision today.

As to your point about what “the radical islamic (sic) element” thinks, you are again over your head.  It is the non-violent, non-radical Muslim, the Muslim in this country and all those in the rest of the world who are not intent on killing you, me or anyone else, for whom the casual use of the term “Crusader” is offensive, especially when associated with weapons of war.  If I’m confusing you, look it up.

Your understanding about the motivation of Mr. Weinstein and the purpose of the MRFF is about as deep as one might expect given the level of the rest of your tirade, so there’s not much point in addressing them.  But I must say the God you invoke in the vicious little curse you managed to puke out is not one I recognize.  He, she or it must be a tiny little thing to fit into the space you allow for thought.

I wish you happier days.

Mike Farrell

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One Comment

  1. tom rogers June 11, 2012 at 10:42 pm

    Wow-that went from bad to atrocious at light-speed. While I appreciated Pastor Joan’s careful reply, sometimes abject derision deserves the same.

    Keep up the great work, MRFF.

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