Marine Corps Religious Freedom Sign

Published On: September 30, 2015|Categories: MRFF's Inbox|18 Comments|

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To Mickey Weinstein and all who this may concern,
First of all I’m not in the military however I was a civilian working with the military in Europe Japan Hawaii Alaska and military personnel in many states for many years. As an American who has family members in the military I’m outraged at your intolerance of those that oppose your viewpoint. Not only do  service members sacrifice their lives, but their families sacrifice their sons, daughters, fathers &  mothers to the service of our country to defend YOUR right to protest. This is a CHRISTIAN nation built on Christian principles and morals. It’s in our Constitution it’s in our Bill of Rights. It’s on our currency. In God We Trust. It’s in the halls of Congress. To give moral comfort to our soldiers to let them know that we stand behind them 200% and our thoughts and prayers for their safety and the safety of their families. We, the silent majority have had enough of these in ridiculous attacks on our moral values and we cannot be silent any longer. If you don’t like it here in America PLEASE go live in  Russia , Iran, China or any ISIL controlled area where your left wing, radical, atheist opinions might be tolerated & appreciated. This is just wrong and there’s no way that you can justify your actions. I’m standing up for the rights that I believe in and this is hateful and frightening. As Americans we are not willing to put up with it. You certainly don’t represent us in any way shape or form.
We have so many problems affecting our country internally & externally that we have to stay focused on things that really matter. Your leadership seems bent on destructive and divisive actions that are contrary to our national interests. Please refocus your efforts on constructive and positive actions to truly help our servicemen and women. Focus your attention on getting the VA straightened out. Focus your attention on all the military veterans one out of every 5 homeless persons is a military veteran. Focus your attention on giving people a hand up be part of the solution instead of the problem.  Be an inspiration & don’t tear down our country from within… we already have enough members of the 5th column inside our borders, we certainly don’t need any more.
Regards,
(name withheld)

Dear (name withheld),

We are simply working in support of Constitution to protect the religious freedom of the woman and men in the military.

You obviously feel very strongly about the foundation of our nation, but strong feelings are not necessarily correct ones.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.

 James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical
Endowments

No one here opposes your principles and no one here is attacking your morals. You are welcome to your beliefs, sir, but you are not allowed to force them on others. The constitution and the founders separate the church from the state and all we ask is that that be honored. If the sign in question had been placed on the chapel grounds where it belongs no one would be concerned about it.

If you will, please note the sentiments of the below writer, a Marine officer. His identity is protected in order to see that he does not suffer recriminations from those who, like you, misunderstand and become offended.

Good Afternoon,

I am writing because I have seen the news regarding the Military Religious Freedom foundation contacting the Marine Corps Base Hawaii Commanding Officer regarding the removal of the God Bless the Military sign.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/09/27/hawaii-marine-corps-base-under-fire-god-bless-military-sign

I would like to add my support for the removal of the sign from the current location and it’s movement to either the chapel or off the base completely. I am a commissioned officer with XX years of service in the Marines and am currently stationed at XX. I drive by this sign every day, and do not think it is appropriate as it gives the impression that the military endorses one religion over another. I have not filed a formal complaint through my chain of command as I feel there would be repercussions, however if there is anything I can do to help in the effort to move the sign, please feel free to contact me.

Thank you,
(U.S. Marine Officer’s name, rank, MOS and unit withheld)

You might want to re-think your message.

Mike Farrell

(MRFF Board of Directors)


 

Dear (name withheld),
 
I am so sorry that you have been misled by lies, omissions and distortions by the media
.
First I need to clear up that Mikey is NOT an atheist. He is Jewish and prays to the same Father we do three times a day. The media and others know this but because the word ‘atheist’ would rile up the Christians better and faster than saying he is ‘Jewish’, they choose to be deceitful.
 
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) is made up of more than just Mikey. There is the Board, the Advisory Board, volunteers and supporters of which 75% are Christians. A full 96% of our 41,711 soldier clients are Christians. We fight for the rights of Christians more than any other religion but it never makes the news.
We DO NOT act on our own but on the complaints from soldiers who contact us because their chain of command has failed them under the Constitution, Supreme Court rulings and the UCMJ. 
 
The religion of the majority in our military does not rule over other religions or those of no religious preference, under the Constitution:
 
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment (Establishment Clause) of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise (Free Exercise Clause) thereof . . . “(1st Amendment)
 
The Establishment Clause comes before the Free Exercise Clause for a reason; the Free Exercise Clause is subservient to the Establishment Clause – not the other way around as some Christians would like it to be.
“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the “wall of separation between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.” Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808) ME 16:320. 
This is his second known use of the term “wall of separation,” here quoting his own use in the Danbury Baptist letter. 
This wording of the original was several times upheld by the Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause.
Jefferson’s concept of “separation of church and state” first became a part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v. U.S.98 U.S. 145 (1878). In that case, the court examined the history of religious liberty in the US, determining that while the constitution guarantees religious freedom, “The word ‘religion’ is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted.” The court found that the leaders in advocating and formulating the constitutional guarantee of religious liberty were James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. Quoting the “separation” paragraph from Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists, the court concluded that, “coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured.
 
In 1878 “separation of church and state” became part of the Establishment Clause BY LAW.
 
The Supreme Court heard the Lemon v. Kurtzman case in 1971 and ruled in favor of the Establishment Clause.
 
Subsequent to this decision, the Supreme Court has applied a three-pronged test to determine whether government action comports with the Establishment Clause, known as the Lemon Test.
 
Government action violates the Establishment Clause unless it:
1. Has a significant secular (i.e., non-religious) purpose,
2. Does not have the primary effect of advancing or inhibiting religion, and
3. Does not foster excessive entanglement between government and religion.
The sign fits into all 3 and therefore it is a violation of the Establishment Clause
 
Parker v. Levy: 
 
“This Court has long recognized that the military is, by necessity, a specialized society separate from civilian society… While the members of the military are not excluded from the protection granted by the First Amendment, the different character of the military community and of the military mission requires a different application of those protections. … The fundamental necessity for obedience, and the consequent necessity for imposition of discipline, may render permissible within the military that which would be constitutionally impermissible outside it… Speech [to include religious speech] that is protected in the civil population may nonetheless undermine the effectiveness of response to command.  If it does, it is constitutionally unprotected.” (Emphasis added) Parker v. Levy, 417 U.S. 733, 1974
 
The sign broke both the Lemon Test and Parker v. Levy and is constitutionally UNPROTECTED.
 
This is just a brief history of the Establishment Clause and the laws relating to the military and religion.
Most of our founding fathers were deists.
 
Deism:
“The belief that God has created the universe (thus the word Creator) but remains apart from it and permits his creation to administer itself through natural laws. Deism thus rejects the supernatural aspects of religion, such as belief in revelation in the Bible, and stresses the importance of ethical conduct.”
 
The history of Christianity trying to force its beliefs in America fills volumes of books and is too long to get into here. Suffice it to say that it was an abysmal failure in making the Colonies a Theocracy. One sect of Christianity was murdering another sect. The Salem Witch Trials, caused by mass hysteria and lies, was the death knell of any attempt to force Christianity on the nation.
 
 “More than once it has been said, too, that the Salem witchcraft was the rock on which the theocracy shattered.” George Lincoln Burr (January 30, 1857 – 1938) Professor of History and Librarian at Cornell University 
 
Our Constitution was written explicitly to base America on secular rule free from religious tyranny.
 
 
The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787, ratified June 21, 1788 and went into effect on March 4, 1789.
 
As for the separation of Church and State not existing in the Constitution, the words may not exist (neither do the words Jesus or Christianity), but the idea is there and those words were used by some of the founding fathers.
 
The Treaty of Tripoli was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796.It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797; a mere 8 years since our Constitution went into effect. If what was written was wrong in anyway, there would have been uproar. But, it passed unanimously and confirmed that America was not founded on Christianity.

Treaty of Tripoli:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

.The Constitution reflects our founder’s views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, “the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety.” 
 
As far as your belief that the Constitution is based on Christianity this is what our Founding Fathers said:
 
 Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
 
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788
If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

“The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
 James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical Endowments
 
“God has appointed two kinds of government in the world, which are distinct in their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government.”
Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison 1785 Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments
 
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
 
Under God was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954; the motto for America was E Pluribus Unum and was adopted by an Act of Congress in 1782. Never codified by law, E Pluribus Unum was considered the de facto motto of the United States until 1956 when Congress passed H.J. Resolution 396 making In God We Trust as our official motto; and In God We Trust was first put on paper money in 1957. 
 
We are the ONLY organization protecting our soldiers’ rights – regardless of their religion or lack thereof – under the Constitution and case laws.
 
We have First Amendment rights just like you do and to suggest that we live in another country because you disagree with us, show us that you want our country to be a theocracy.
 
We’re not going anywhere.
 
Please go here and check out the honorable and distinguished military personnel of whom we rely on for their expertise on religion in the military. You will also see other people of all walks of life. http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about/foundation-voices/
 
Also read our Mission Statement to get a firm grasp of what we believe in and fight for. http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about/our-mission/
 
Hopefully, the laws that have been stated here regarding a government entity and religion will help you see through the lies, distortions and omissions you have been fed.
 
Pastor Joan
MRFF Advisory Board Member

Dear (name withheld) –

 

I am writing in response to your September 29, 2015 email to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (“MRFF”).    You make a number of statements – all erroneous.  I hope I can shed some light on your plain misunderstanding concerning the mission and work of MRFF.

 

First, the only viewpoint of which we are intolerant is the opinion that the Constitution and military regulations may be ignored by military superiors who openly endorse one religion over any other.  I assume from the content of your letter that you believe we are intolerant to Christians, but that is simply not true.  In fact, over 96% of MRFF clients are Christians who sought help as a result of religious discrimination (usually on the basis that they are “not Christian enough”).  We not only have no issue with Christianity, we protect the religious freedom of thousands of Christian men and women in uniform.

 

Second, this is not a Christian nation.  The Founders clearly established a wall of separation between church and state when drafting the Constitution.  Article 6 states, “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust.”  The First Amendment provides for the freedom to practice any religious faith (or no faith at all) and also prohibits the government from establishing a particular religion.

 

While we have no objection to the practice of Christianity, we do insist that the expression of any religious faith within the military take place in the proper time, place, and manner, as required by the Establishment Clause.  We do not promote “Atheist” opinions, as you claim – but such opinions are, in fact, tolerated in this country.  Moreover, such opinions are constitutionally protected and more “tolerated” here than in any of the countries to which you suggest we relocate.

 

You are correct that all soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, midshipmen, cadets, and veterans – as well as their families – make many sacrifices to protect and defend our constitutional rights.  Our mission is to ensure that their constitutional rights are also protected.  You may believe that Christian values let our troops know that we stand behind them.  We stand behind them by ensuring that they have the same rights they protect for the rest of us.

 

We protect our protectors.  I cannot fathom a better justification for our actions or a more “positive” way to help those who choose to serve this great country.

 

Blessed be,

 

Tobanna Barker

MRFF Legal Affairs Coordinator

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18 Comments

  1. Yeshua Warrior September 30, 2015 at 7:28 am

    Dear Mr. Farrell and Pastor Joan,

    The original intent of the writers of the Constitution was to make sure there was no national religion like which they came out of when they were in England. Also, the original intent was not to keep religion out of the government, but to keep the government out of religion. Please tell me where in the constitution where it says that everyone has a freedom of religion and expression of it, except for in the military, and unfortunately that is also spreading to our schools and colleges today, as students are not allowed to have a bible club but there are queer clubs on campus. I am thankful that at the Public charter school my daughter attends, the football players pray before every game joined by some of the coaches as well, the cheerleaders have prayed before their competition also joined by their coach. Christian students have stood up in class confronting the teacher on evolution and walked out of class! The bible club on campus held a lock in one year for those who willingly wanted to come! Our nation went down hill fast, which statistics bear out after prayer was removed from the schools along with God taken out as well, well it is not going to happen to our military.

  2. DaveG September 30, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    Yeshua Warrior,

    “but there are queer clubs on campus…”
    Homosexuality is not a religion.

    “Christian students have stood up in class confronting the teacher on evolution and walked out of class!”
    How sad that young people reject reality. That is a much bigger threat to the USA than your trifling concern about prayer removed from schools. We atheists are, arguably, morally superior to Believers because we choose to act ethically of our free will, not because some Cosmic Psychopath (have you read the OT?) ordered us to.
    Please post the statistics that support your point about our nation going downhill.

  3. Yeshua Warrior September 30, 2015 at 7:15 pm

    Dear DaveG,

    You are right that gay clubs are not a religion, but the courts have ruled that schools must allow bible clubs on campus as long as they do not interfere with school time, so they by law can meet either before or after school, so any school that interferes with this is violating the law and subject to prosecution and whenever Christian lawyers force the issue with schools, the schools always back down!

    Evolution is not reality Dave, even Darwin recanted his theory of evolution on his death bed, bet you did not know that, plus, scientists have proven that evolution is impossible, so if you want to believe a lie, go right ahead.

    I loved your statement that atheists are morally superior to believers, that is funny, haha. Atheists have no morals, for if you say that you are moral then there has to be a God who is moral. What if I said I wanted to steal your car because it is within by free will to do so, what would you say?

    Your statement about Cosmic Psychopath, in what way is that, and yes I have read the OT several times over.

    Here is an article you can read about the statistics – http://www.inplainsite.org/what_happened_when_the_praying.html

    Finally, you can be as moral as you want, but it will still not get you to heaven!

  4. Carmine Wiggins October 1, 2015 at 4:24 pm

    Yeshua Warrior

    Morals are learned through education and example, not magic dust. People do not need a deity to learn morals, but if they do need one to be a good person who are we to judge? As an non-theist I dislike abortion unless it is necessary to save a mothers life or rape, but I will not force my dislike on other people. As far as evolution, it is the most acceptable explanation for where we came from and where we might go, and also universally accepted. Unless you have a crystal ball, you’re opinion is noted, but discarded as nonsense.

    Scientists have NOT proven that evolution is impossible but HIGHLY probable; but no one can say for sure, just like you nor anyone else can prove there is a god.

    I dare you to steel Dave’s car, jail isn’t a nice place for thieves and god can’t help you there.

  5. Mark Sebree October 1, 2015 at 6:53 pm

    “Evolution is not reality Dave, even Darwin recanted his theory of evolution on his death bed, bet you did not know that, plus, scientists have proven that evolution is impossible, so if you want to believe a lie, go right ahead.”

    Yeshua, the reason that most of us do not believe you is because you either lie all the time, or you are profoundly ignorant. The origin of the myth that Darwin recanted his theory of Evolution on his deathbed is an evangelical leader of the Temperance movement named Lady Hope. She was not with Darwin when he was dying. However, Darwin’s children were, and they said that he never recanted his Theory of Evolution. That means that Lady Hope lied, and rather blatantly. And you believed her, which means that you believed obvious lies.

    No scientist has proven that evolution is impossible. If one had, that person would get the Nobel Prize in Biology for overturning such a strongly supported theory with such an abundance of supporting evidence that a number of fields of science and medicine have descended from it. If you think that some reputable scientists have disproven evolution, then give us some solid, unbiased references that we can check.

    Additionally, evolution has been observed in the lab, as well as “in the wild”, which supports the determination that it exists. Before genetic modification became available, evolution was the basis for both plant and animal breeding programs to develop specific traits, even before that process had a name.

    “Atheists have no morals, for if you say that you are moral then there has to be a God who is moral. ”

    Actually, atheists usually have every strong morals since they cannot and do not blame their actions on some mythical being, nor can they ask that non-existant being “for forgiveness” of their actions. They generally take responsibility for what they have done, and the consequences of it. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the ratio of prisoners who are atheists or agnostics is about 1/10 the ratio of atheists and agnostics in the general population. This would support the morality of atheists and agnostics.

    What’s more, the existence of a system of morals does not presuppose the existence of any deity. Morals are learned from society, from family, from friends, and from news and entertainment. They vary over time, between different countries and cultures, between different parts of a country, between socio-economic levels, and between just about every other variable. That is why morals are not used as a basis for law, because they are subjective rather than objective.

    As an additional note, I do not find the Christian deity particularly moral. According to the Bible, he is hateful, jealous, petty, misogynistic, intolerant, xenophobic, genocidal, and abusive. I do not see how such a deity could develop a good “moral code”.

  6. Yeshua Warrior October 2, 2015 at 8:32 am

    Dear Carmine and Mark, evolution theory presupposes that we all came out from some form of primordial sludge, if that were the case, which it is not, then where did that sludge or goo came from? It just cannot suddenly appear out of nowhere, it would have to have a cause! You may want to watch some videos on YouTube with Ray Comfort.

    Mark, now give me some examples where God is hateful, petty, misogynistic (really) genocidal, abusive. Please site chapter and verse, take your time on this one.

    How can God be hateful, when He sent His Son Jesus Christ to take all of humanity’s sins, yours, mine and everyone who has ever lived on this planet and put them all on Himself, suffering the most gruesome of deaths on a Roman cross, so that we would not have to suffer the penalty of our sins! Jesus took our place on that cross so that we would not have to, now that is the essence of God’s love!!

  7. Carmine Wiggins October 2, 2015 at 2:58 pm

    Ray Comfort…are you kidding? This religious zealot said he could scientifically prove the existence of god, but never did (and never will). May I suggest you not listen to creationist or televangelists Yeshua Warrior, they are full of bull and only want your money.

    The age old evolutionary BS you hear or read about called sludge or goo is uneducated hooey and not science. This crap comes from foolish people trying to prove something without proof of there own…like another possibility that can be scientifically proven. I agree we gotta come from somewhere, and as far as I know NO ONE knows for sure; so until we do, let’s not believe we are “created” from/by a deity either, we need PROOF for ourselves!

    Evil god things…

    -In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth
    -In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns.
    -In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.
    -In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children.
    -In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them.
    -In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho.
    -In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword.
    -In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them.
    -In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend.
    -According to Revelation 9:7-19, God’s got more evil coming.

  8. Yeshua Warrior October 2, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    Ok Carmine, you cannot base something using only one verse or a couple.

    Genesis 7:21-23 – God drowns the entire population. Why, read Genesis 6:1-8. God causes the flood because the wickedness of man was great in the earth and man’s heart was only evil continually. Also, because the sons of God (which means fallen angels) came down and had sex with women thus creating the Nephillim or giants. God is a holy God and cannot look upon wickedness, yet scripture says that God found favor with Noah and his family.

    Matthew 24:37-42- Did you read this passages Carmine? It says “as in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man(Jesus). Look at the story again in Genesis, why did God send the flood, because the “wickedness of man was great in the earth.” Have you looked around lately, the world is not getting any better since after the flood, wickedness is getting greater, i.e. pornography, pedophilia, abortion, gay marriage and homosexuality, sex before marriage, extra marital affairs, lying, cheating, incest, shall I go on. Once again God must deal with the sin and wickedness of man, because He is a holy God.

    2 Chron. 13:15-8 – To set this up at this time the nation of Israel was divided into two separate kingdoms, the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, both kingdoms having their own king. Jeroboam the king of the north and Abijah the king of the south. Jeroboam if my OT memory serves me will was an evil king and the scripture says that he laid an ambush in front of and behind Abijah and the men of Judah, and Judah cried out to God for help because they trusted in the God of Israel while Jeroboam instituted golden calf worship in the north. God used the kingdom of Judah and their king to execute justice upon Jeroboam and the northern kingdom.

    Exodus 12:29, God a baby killer really, did you care to read before this passage to find out why? Even Mikey could tell you why, but I will explain. Prior to this, the Israelites had been slaves in Egypt for over 400 years and God heard the cries of His people to be delivered and that is why he chose Moses to go to Egypt and demand that the Pharoah let His people go. The Pharaoh refused to comply and his heart became increasing hardened toward Moses and God. So, Moses went to Pharaoh time after time to demand him to let God’s people go and each time Pharaoh refused so God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that he will bring a plague upon Egypt every time he refused, each plague being a little worse than the last. Nine plagues God brought upon the Egyptians to convince them to let the Hebrews go, so after the ninth plague and Pharaohs refusal, Moses was to tell Pharaoh that God will kill every first born child and animal in the land of Egypt. Well that was enough to convince Pharaoh to finally let the Israelites go. But, he told Moses to tell all the Hebrews to sacrifice a lamb ( a prophetic sign of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross) and to spread the lamb’s blood on the outside of the door or where they lived, and when the death angel came and he saw the blood he would then passover that home and spare the first born of every Israelite. Thus today when the Jewish people today celebrate Passover, it is to remember and commemorate God’s deliverance of the Israelites from Pharaoh and their bondage!

    Numbers 16:41-49, I would suggest you go back to the beginning of chapter 16 and start reading there and you will find out why. This is chapter is known as Korah’s rebellion, they caused some of the people rise up and to grumble and complain about Moses and Aaron, God’s chosen leaders for the Israelites. God causes a plague to come upon those who were in rebellion against Moses and Aaron, but at the end of the chapter, Moses stands in between the dead and the living and the plague stopped.

    Joshua 6:20-21 – After crossing over the the Jordan River the first city they came to was Jericho, and since God promised that land to the Israelites a few hundred years before this, but God said that you must conquer the land I am giving to you and Jericho stood in their way. God told Joshua that that He had given the city over to his hands, but since the city was so fortified, God told them that they had to march around the city for 7 days and not say a word, on the 7th day they were to march around the city 7 times and on the 7th time they were all to shout and blow their shofars and the city walls all crumbled down. Prior to this, they sent spies into the land and to Jericho and the prostitute Rahab hid the spies and with the promise that when the Israelites attack the city, she and her family would be protected which they were, Now get this, Rahab is in the family lineage all the way down to King David and to Jesus!

    Joshua 10:10-11, the Amorites also known as the Caananites were bitter enemies of the Jewish people. The Amorites were into occult worship and other things and they summoned 4 other Amorite kings to go to battle against the Israelites and God confused all those who came up to fight against them even threw large stones from heaven down upon them and killed many, more than what Israel had done with the sword. So, God was just protecting His people once again.

    2 Kings 2:23-24, first of all the Hebrew rendering of the word children is really best translated young men not children, somewhere around 20 years of age. Following is one of the best explanations as to why Elisha cursed the young men – In summary, 2 Kings 2:23-24 is not an account of God mauling young children for making fun of a bald man. Rather, it is a record of an insulting demonstration against God’s prophet by a large group of young men. Because these young people of about 20 years of age or older (the same term is used of Solomon in 1 Kings 3:7) so despised the prophet of the Lord, Elisha called upon the Lord to deal with the rebels as He saw fit. The Lord’s punishment was the mauling of 42 of them by two female bears. The penalty was clearly justified, for to ridicule Elisha was to ridicule the Lord Himself. The seriousness of the crime was indicated by the seriousness of the punishment. The appalling judgment was God’s warning to all who would scorn the prophets of the Lord.

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10: Once again you need to read the verses that come before these to find out why. 13 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil[a] from your midst. God was making an example of those who decided to embrace the gods of the other nations around the Israelites and to lure them to leave the way that God commanded them to walk in. Remember the 1st commandment of the 10 commandments -“you shall have no other gods before Me.” God commanded His people to obey Him rather than to follow the gods of the heathen nations around them.

    Revelation 9:7-19, plain and simple this is the final judgement of God upon all mankind for their increasing wickedness for how many of thousands of years since the flood. God cannot continue to let sin increase without executing His justice upon all of mankind for their rebellion towards God. The Apostle Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote in Romans 6:23 – “the wages (penalty) of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.” All based upon those who choose to receive it. Now let’s go back to the remaining verses of Rev. 9 – “20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons (Satan worship, horoscopes, etc.) and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders (abortion, killing another human being) or their sorceries or their sexual immorality(homosexuality, fornication, pre-marital sex, extra-marital sex, beastiality, etc) or their thefts.”

    History is quickly heading towards a finality, but everyone has a choice, either accept the free gift of salvation found only in the the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross and gain eternal life, or continue to rebel against God in the way they live their lives and refuse Christ’s free gift, and face an eternity in hell as the penalty for their sins.

    I await your reply!

  9. Mark Sebree October 2, 2015 at 7:45 pm

    Yeshua,

    Again, you show your ignorance, about evolution and about your own religion.

    The theory of evolution deals with how species change over time in response to both stressors and opportunities. Your comment does not even deal with evolution since the world you describe existed BEFORE life formed. You are asking about the theory of abiogenesis. As to where the original broth came from in which life formed, that is also simple. Volcanic eruptions, wind erosion, and water erosion, with the molecules and compounds being dissolved in water, which is an excellent solvent. Add waves from tidal motion and wind, as well as lighting and the sun, and you have incalculable chemical reactions taking place all over the world every second. And since the seas were very shallow, that means more energy was reaching more surface area and depth.

    To start with, “sin” is a religious concept. It cannot exist outside a religious framework. Change the framework (i.e. religion), and you change what is and is not a sin. Remove the framework entirely, and you remove everything that “sin” depends on to exist. Therefore, it is completely subjective.

    God can be hateful because he required/let his own son die when he should have been able to stop it from happening. For that matter, there is nothing stopping him from “forgiving sins” even without “following his son”. That is an example of both his hatefulness and his intolerance.

    To add to Carmine’s list, here are a few more:
    -The entire book of Job – God heaps all sorts of abuse on Job to ruin his life
    -Genesis 3:16 – Petty because he lays a permanent curse on women which “greatly multiply thy sorrow” in childbirth for eating a fruit which he told them not to each, and which he should have know since he is supposed to be “all-knowing” that they eventually would. Also misogynistic for that punishment and because he also said that her husband “shall rule over [her]”.
    -Gen 11:7 – Again petty because human beings were working together to build a great tower, and he did not want them to do that.
    Gen 19:8 – Lot offer the mob his two virgin daughters to try to placate them, and yet he is considered to be the best man in the city
    Gen 19:24 – Then completely destroyed 2 cities (and presumably a small country” because the people would not offer his emissaries hospitality
    Gen 19:25 – and then killed Lot’s wife because she happened to look back, a very human reaction.
    Exo 20:5 – Outright states that he is a jealous god.
    Exo, Deu, Lev, Num – many verses in the laws that treat women as property rather than human beings. Including in Num 5:5-29 a test for her infidelity, which is essential drinking a foul brew containing ergot to cause an abortion if she is pregnant, while there is no test or punishment for a man that is “unfaithful”.

    And that is from just the few couple books of the Bible.

  10. Connie October 3, 2015 at 6:56 am

    Yeshua Warrior – you said “Ok Carmine, you cannot base something using only one verse or a couple.”

    Really? Because you do it all the time. You condemn homosexuality based on one rule in a whole list of things that are equally condemned with death. Have you eaten shrimp or bacon? Do you wear mixed fabrics? Do you shave your face?

    I’ve asked these questions of you before and you gave the line that all things in the Old Testament were replaced by the new. When you give me your standard response, I understand your condemnation of homosexuality is your preferred bias, nothing more, only you won’t accept responsibility. In fact, it’s your faith’s whole focus to avoid responsibility – at least that is how I see it.

    I was going to say more but it was just mean and I’m not there today. I want you to understand that I have the right, as does everyone else paying taxes in these United States, to exist without your religion. Jesus may be the answer for you but he is not for me. That is what I’ve been trying to get you to understand. I don’t want to take your faith away. I want you to stop shoving it down my throat. I’ve been raped enough thank you very much. Now stop it.

  11. Connie October 3, 2015 at 7:00 am

    Mark,

    I love you found all the references to “bitter brew” which means abortifacients. It makes my logic senses hurt when religious folks use their Holy book to say that’s why they are anti-abortion (no way are they pro-life).

    Some days I feel like Gollum being drug by Frodo and Sam with the Elf rope around my neck. The Stupid! It burnses us!!!!!!!

  12. Yeshua Warrior October 3, 2015 at 8:13 am

    Dear Connie,

    I can give you several verses from scripture that forbid homosexuality, so I do not use just one. Why the rabbit trail of the usual question some ask, do I eat shell fish, bacon, and shave my face. Well I do not like fish so no I do not eat shell fish, yes I love bacon and eat it all the time, and yes shave my face everyday for work, why? Oh yes I probably wear clothes of mixed fabric as well, why? Those dietary restrictions were part of the Mosaic laws given in the desert for the Israelites only, same with not shaving my face and not wearing clothes of mixed fabric. I am not Jewish but a Gentile, so I am not bound by the dietary laws that the Jews are, so I can eat anything I want to and wear whatever I want without guilt or condemnation.

  13. Yeshua Warrior October 3, 2015 at 5:16 pm

    Carmine, you may want to read this very interesting article on where moral truths come from – http://crossexamined.org/are-moral-truths-a-product-of-culture/

  14. Yeshua Warrior October 4, 2015 at 3:47 pm

    This is how the Marine commander in Hawaii should respond to Mikey, just how the police chief in Texas responded to the FFRF. http://video.foxnews.com/v/4520265627001/police-chief-takes-on-atheist-activists-in-epic-showdown/?playlist_id=930909787001#sp=show-clips

    Go fly a kite, or take a long walk off a short pier, or up your schnozola with a bottle of cola are all appropriate responses for Mikey!!

  15. DaveG October 5, 2015 at 7:11 pm

    YW, sorry I didn’t answer your previous rebuttal to me. I might but don’t count on it.
    Do you deny that putting a religious slogan on government property implies an endorsement of religion, which is illegal? As Mikey pointed out in the Hawaii case, an inferior but acceptable slogan would be In God/Thor/Zeus/Shiva/Anubis/… We Trust.

  16. DaveG October 5, 2015 at 7:13 pm

    I’m puzzled that, as the lawyer said, the slogan’s use by the (Federal?) Government has passed all challenges.

  17. Yeshua Warrior October 6, 2015 at 6:26 am

    Dave G,

    I have no problem with the sign, but instead they could put a sign that reads “In God We Trust, so we pray for all military families and civilians for their protection.”

    In God We Trust is the national motto so it is protected. If it printed on government paper, there should be no problem for it to be on government property.

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