ARMY TIMES – Update: Sign featuring crusader-like knight removed

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  1. Neil Talbott, Major, USAF Ret.

    While I believe that the Army should scrub these kinds of unit emblems and the Military Religious Freedom organization plays an important part in encouraging them to do so, I feel some of MRFF’s language is offensive and overused. It is arrogant for MRFF to “demand” anything. Your frequently used terms like demand and outrage are rapidly loosing their impact. This kind of language simply offends those who ordinarily would support some of the goals of MRFF.

  2. BirdManBlue

    Neil, I’m really sorry if the language offends you, but the bottom line is that when it comes to defending the Constitutional rights of our women and men in uniform, “Mother May I” just doesn’t elevate the issue to a level that demands attention and action. It wasn’t until the MRFF started taking the side of the Constitution–against ALL inappropriate and dangerous mixing of religion and military hierarchy–that anyone bothered to notice. What you’re seeing now is the pent up anger of those that are simply tired of having their rights trampled and their beliefs either ignored or ridiculed by those that think that their particular view on religion is a necessary and sufficient condition for patriotic service. That’s just not the case and it’s ONLY by using the current, albeit inflammatory language, that we and the MRFF have been greeted with anything more than a form letter beginning with “Thanks for your interest in national defense…”
    There’s a reason you want your guard dog to have an angry bark–it generates a response that warns those that would trespass on our rights to STFA or you’ll be bitten.
    PS — thanks for your service and the recognition of MRFF’s important role!

  3. G

    If the military can’t come up with better emblems for their units, then maybe they should bring back the names of the units that were disband after the Civil War and World War II.

  4. rsm505

    Your site or organization does not seem to hold Constitutional boundaries or values very well, trying to derail motivational insignia. The U.S. Constitution is not a religious scripture. The American Flag is not a religious symbol. And for your information there are many faiths that serve within the U.S. Military and Military Chaplains to manage them. You expound your views and opinion on too many people and impact others Freedom to express themselves that is called tyranny. Oppression of free speech, and the right to say, read, and express your beliefs is a American right. My question to you is what gives you the right to express your opinion on a site, or anyplace else about something that you may not agree with? The answer to that is those soldiers that you are denying the emblem of choice to represent the unit they happen to be assigned to. It is like saying that the Blue Angel’s are offensive because they are representing God and the color was not the right one. If you ask me with your site and the things you chose to whine about you could do the country some good and find someone else to write about that helps the Nation, and services say maybe Islamic Terrorism would be a good topic for you to take note of. Thats right I said the words, maybe ISIS, or ACM, maybe complain that some dirty cowardly scumbag insurgents killed over 130 people in france would be a better use of your time and energy rather than derailing motivational emblem’s of our military. Its not your choice what units display what, you are not the U.S. Congress, and You are Not a Commander. You claim to represent those organizations but somehow manage to undermine the bill of rights,and the Constitution that clearly separates Church and State. Good Job.

  5. M McL

    Dont underestimate the effects of the Crusades. Influenced the Orthodox church to split for one. Dead everybody, including Jews. Please, get a book.

  6. BirdManBlue

    Wading through the incoherence of rsm505’s note is no trivial matter, but I’ll give it a go.
    1. Should we (the gov’t and American public) allow military units to choose their own emblem without review or consideration? What if a unit chose something that referenced a uniquely Muslim, Jewish, or Atheist stance that was insulting or alienating to a minority of members in that unit? Should there be a group that highlights offenses like that? A “crusader” with a cross is a clearly sectarian, christian symbol, that suggests military defeat of all those that are NOT christian. Would a Jewish soldier feel confident that they’d be treated as an equal is such an organization? A Muslim? The EXACT equivalent would be if an US military unit chose to call themselves the “jihadists.” That clearly would be a bad choice and the MRFF would fight that tooth-and-nail.
    2. Should we have an issue with “Blue Angels?” I don’t and I’m an atheist. Why not? Because the concept of angels is not a purely Christian concept—the thought or hope of some mythical beings that look over us and protect us is found in almost every religion and you’ll even hear atheists and agnostics use the term in a literary or metaphorical sense. It’s non-threatening and non-tribal. Now, if they were the “Blue Maccabis” or “Green Jihadists” or “Black Crusaders,” I’d take issue.
    3. Terrorism IS a good topic to consider and the MRFF is as opposed to terrorism in all forms as any organization. The MRFF recognizes, too, that fanatic religiosity mixed with military power (e.g., ISIS) is a threat to the freedom of all and that this sort of threat can be posed by religious fanatics beyond just the Islamic world. The MRFF’s fight to keep religious fanaticism and sectarianism OUT of the US military if focused on making our forces stronger, more effective, more inclusive, and more representative of the US citizenry. We can only defeat religious extremism by making sure it first does not find a home in our own force—only then can we model the sort of freedom and fairness we’d like to see in other parts of the world that are not so fortunate to live under a Constitution such as ours.
    4. You’re right—It’s not the MRFF’s choice “what units display what,” but it IS the MRFF’s right as representatives of thousands of US citizens and military members to express outrage and the inappropriate and Unconstitutional displays that violate existing policy and threaten our service members’ ability to serve. Follow me on this one example: it may not be your place to pick your neighborhood high school’s mascot, but if you lived next door, just happened to of Polish descent, and a vote of the students or faculty decided that the new school would be the “Fighting Pollocks,” would you make a complaint? What if the school called themselves the “Wetbacks?” “Redskins?” “The Illegible Scribblers?”
    5. The bottom line here is that when a government institution (e.g., military unit, public school, or county office building) picks an emblem or mascot, we ALL have a right to review it and complain. I’d say we have an OBLIGATION to hold those institutions responsible for their bad decision if that mascot or emblem displays bias for or against any group or member of the public. If we didn’t, then I daresay we’d still have racially segregated military units and you, my friend, might not be able to sit in the front of the bus—especially if we had signs that said, “Folks Who Don’t Write Good Must Sit in the Back!”

  7. G

    My question to you is what gives you the right to express your opinion on a site, or anyplace else about something that you may not agree with?”

    My question to you rsm505, is why are corporations entitled to free speech considering the fact that they are not citizens; however, they do everything they can to suppress the free speech of ordinary citizens by various means?

    “you are not the U.S. Congress, and You are Not a Commander.”

    Well wealthy people and corporations think that they are the US Congress and are the Commander of the USA.

    You are corporations and wealthy people that are undermining the US Constitution by denying ordinary citizens access to the court and denying the right to free speech when people tried to unionize.

  8. Yeshua Warrior

    Where do you live G, everyone has access to the court?? Unions are out dated and serve no real purpose anymore like they use to, time to get rid of all of them.

  9. Yeshua Warrior

    I wonder if Mikey would have a problem if that unit renamed themselves the “Fighting Dildos”, or would he scream they are now being misogynistic now?

    I don’t Mikey would have any problem if a unit called themselves the “Fighting Allah Akbars” since he is so Muslim friendly.

  10. Yeshua Warrior

    I found something very interesting, that in the Israeli Air Force, one of their F-16 squadrons is known as the “Knights of the North Squadron.” I guess Israel has no problem with naming a squadron “knights.” Just goes to show they have no problem pissing off radical Muslims, because they are out to kill them, like we should be doing and not bowing down to their whining or worrying about offending them. If they are offended, they can just get the hell out this country and go back home where they belong in the Middle East!! May the Knights of the North Squadron have happy hunting and killing radical Muslims where ever they find them!! Mazel Tov!!

  11. Yeshua Warrior

    Hold your horses, I just saw this, besides the Knights of the North Squadron, they also have the Knights of the Orange Tail Squadron, Knight of the Twin Tail Squadron, and Knights of the Yellow Bird Squadron. I guess Israel has no problem with Knights, so why should we??

  12. G

    What year are you living in YM?

    Ordinary Americans do not have access to the courts since they are being forced into arbitration:

    Unions have done very well for the people in Europe, Canada, and Australia. We would not need unions if the employers would treat and pay their workers very well. We have the worse economic inequality since the Great Depression. We need to get rid of corporation and create more worker cooperatives businesses like Mondragon

    You don’t see these Christians CEOs like the Koch Brothers, Donald Trump, Meg Whitman, and Carly Fiorina giving a damn about the workers.

  13. G

    YM, If Israel wants to name their units “knights” that is their own affairs, not ours.

  14. G

    “I guess Israel has no problem with Knights, so why should we??”

    Because we have a separation of state and religion that’s why.

  15. G

    What era do you live in, YM?

    Citizens have no access to the courts anymore:

    Unions have been very successful in Europe, Australia, and Canada and no politician and worker is looking at getting rid of them.

    We need to get rid of corporations and replace them with worker collective businesses like Monodragon.

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