Those Marines Bought an SS Flag Without Knowing What it Was? Seriously? That’s Your Excuse?
by Chris Rodda, MRFF Senior Research Director
Of all the really hard to believe excuses the military has made for the actions of military personnel, this one has to take the cake. Those Marines posing with a Nazi SS flag in Afghanistan just didn’t know it was an SS flag!
Yesterday, this photo went viral:
If you somehow managed to miss all of the countless stories about this photo, here’s the AP version.
There are also a whole bunch of articles with titles like “Marines: Nazi flag was mistaken for their own,” since the Marine Corps’ official excuse is that the use of the flag was just a naive mistake on the part of Marines who didn’t know what the flag was and just thought the SS stood for Sniper Scout.
Really? And just how does someone go about buying a Nazi SS flag without realizing that it’s a Nazi SS flag? Well, I spent hours yesterday afternoon and last night trying to do just that, scouring the web for an SS flag that could be bought by mistake. And, big surprise, I couldn’t find a single place where an SS flag wasn’t very clearly being sold as what it is — a Nazi flag.
In the course of searching, I found what I’m certain is the exact flag in the Marines’ photo. It’s the only one anywhere on the web with a blue background, and laying the image from the website on top of the Marines’ photo shows that every dimension of the flags are identical, from the size and proportions of every part of the logo to the slightly off-center position of the logo on the flag. You can even see in the Marines’ photo that their flag had the same creases from being folded as the flag for sale on the website.
The description of the flag on the website, Traders of the Lost Surplus, is an “ss double runic flag, a favorite and well know ss flag,” and the entire website is full of Nazi stuff. No Marine, even if they previously didn’t know that this was a Nazi symbol, could possibly be so dumb that they wouldn’t realize at this point that this is a Nazi flag! Even if someone was unfamiliar with the SS logo, all the swastika items would certainly tip them off.
Here’s a screen grab from the website, with the blue SS flag at the lower left:
As Gawker put it, “But then how you end up acquiring Schutzstaffel flag? Unless our men in uniform sewed the flag themselves, you’d think the whole ‘Please make your check out of Nazi Memorabilia ‘R’ Us’ thing would have tipped them off.”
The Atlantic Wire isn’t buying the naive mistake excuse either, posting an article titled “Marine Corps Insists Marines Are Too Dumb to Know This Is a Nazi Flag.”
Are people in our military seriously ignorant about history? Probably. That “Jesus Loves Nukes” missile officer training that the Military Religious Freedom Foundation got the Air Force to nix did include a slide of former Nazi and SS officer Wernher von Braun being quoted as a moral authority. And there is a constant stream of Christian nationalist pseudo-history in base newspapers throughout the military, as well as in military training presentations (but that’s a story for another day).
But historical ignorance can not excuse these Marines using the SS flag. No matter how little they know about history, it’s just impossible to believe that they could have bought that flag without finding out what it was in the process of buying it.
The Marine Corps must think we’re all pretty naive to believe their excuse that these Marines were that naive.
This is just too unbelievable to express in words.
I am deeply disappointed with MRFF on this one. I agree that it is bad to have your picture taken with a SS flag, but I expected more from the MILITARY Religious Freedom Foundation! I’m disappointed that a foundation that deals exclusively with the military knows NOTHING about the marines apparently. The marines are SCOUT SNIPERS not sniper scouts. Your OWN ignorance is showing.
If you had done ANY kind of research on the MARINES scout sniper symbol, and not spending all your time trying to find your own flag, then you would have figured out that the symbol is not owned by the Nazi SS. It’s a graphic representation of the ss in Scout Sniper. It’s actually incorporated in a number of MSSniper symbols. This entire article is awash with conjecture and speculation.
It’s sad that MRFF seems to be going on “witch” hunts now. I bet you would protest Kiss playing at any military function, because the ss in Kiss is runic, so they must be nazi sympathizers too huh? Except that Spaceman (Frehley) did it to make the s’s look like lightning bolts for NO other reason then that. Next thing you know. This foundation will be fighting itself when it prosecutes AND defends Buddhists who use the swastika symbolizing eternity.
I don’t think it is a stretch to say that they wanted to symbolize the SS in scout sniper considering it’s IN THERE SYMBOLS. What is a stretch is you claiming that WHERE they got the flag is all that matters and not what it actually represents to THEM.
I hope to see MRFF being put to better use in the future, than this joke of a story.
Ok, is it a case of dumb Marines? Who cares! The Marine Corps is going to spin this because they are on a hiding-to-nothing in any other scenario.
Anyway, these guys were not dumb. They did exactly what they wanted and knew exactly what they were doing. The Fascist mentally is alive and well because war makes bastards out of us all.
Get them out of Afghanistan where they have no business being. If they want to be provocative they can piss on their own parade down Main Street
@Thayer, I’m sorry you think that
1. MRFF should show such loyalty to the military as to help hide unconscionable acts:
2. Marines “mistaking” the Nazi SS for Scout Sniper symbolism is equivalent or less significant than a civilian (i.e., Chris Rodda) accidently confusing Scout Sniper with Sniper Scout;
3. and it’s perfectly okay for Marine to co-op the old Nazi, current Neo-Nazi/White Supremacist logo just because they’re Marines and they got away with it for some time.
To suggest this is a joke is to demonstrate an absurd, morbid sense of humor.
Chris, kudos for the strong work. That’s the difference between a real researcher and someone who believes whatever is convenient, lacking or afraid of using appropriate critical reasoning skills. Thank you!
Thayer, thank you for your comments.
Doc Rock, if Chris was a real researcher he would have found out that the flag used by the Marines is not same as the SS flag of the Schutzstaffel. The flag of the SS had either black or white background and most importantly, the sig rune are tilted like lighting bolts, hence the name. Is it similar, yes. Is it the same, no.
It is amazing to me that people with only 1% of the information are so ready to judge and demean an elite team of Marines who have voluntarily put their lives on the line for their country. These Marines are not just the tip of the spear, they are its sharp edge. Their commanders have investigated and determined it was not racially motivated. They have been instructed not to use it in the future because it can be misinterpreted. These Marines deserve the benefit of doubt and our thanks for their service.
MRFF,
As a Marine, I can tell that your research is shoddy at best and you are clearly trying to make this into something that it is not. Moreover, your audience is obviously oblivious to the fact that many facets of the German military of WWII are deeply entrenched in the modern American military.
Are these young Marines Nazis? No. Shame on you.
Is this the same runic symbol as used by the SS? Yes. Don’t be silly and grow up.
Angled in this direction, the runes “signify” SS for Scout Sniper, not Schutzstaffel. THe lightning bolts in this case are considered symbolic of the Snipers ability to “strike from nowhere” like a lightning strike.
Now, if this image is most easily available on a WWII Memorabilia website, I have to imagine the Marines in question went with the easy thing and bought it there. Lets not be silly here.
If you think the US Military doesn’t steal heraldry from former enemies, guess again. THe Combat Action Badge currently awarded to non-Infantry Branch soldiers for their service is based directly upon the design of the Wehrmacht CLose COmbat Badge awarded during WOrld War Two. The Unit Crest of the Army Ranger School at one time included a portion that was the Confederate Battle Flag. (Another much villified symbol) Are Rangers WHite supremicists? Are recipients of the Combat Action Badge Nazi sympathizers? Of course not. How dare you?
Are you aware that most American military doctrine was borrowed from the German General Staff? Care to guess how many Armor and Mechanized Infantry Officers/Vehicle Commanders have a picture of Rommel, Guderian, or Peiper taped inside the turret of their vehicle? More than you’d think.
Are the Generals being political? Of course. Know many Generals? They are political people, otherwise, they would not have become Generals. How many current Marine Generals are former Scout SNipers? Do your research. THe Commandant of the Marine Corps is a FIghter Pilot. For 85% of his career he had little if any exposure to the culture of the Marine Ground COmbat Element which is where Scout Snipers live, of course he is unaware that the symbol in question has been used by the Scout Sniper Community for decades. Nothing to see here.
Lay off these young Marines, their lives are tough enough.
I have to agree that the use of the SS symbol is in bad taste. Although I doubt these Marines, who are among the proudest of all Americans, would stand to be counted with with the SS. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn’t know Marines. I also have to agree with JC on the legacy of the German Military in our own as well. I would ask Ms. Rodda about her own stereotypes as she labels the miltary as having a “culture of intolerence”. Perhaps if she could tell us with what unit she served to be immersed in such a culture, we could better understand. There are absolutely racists and biggots in the military, but I would suspect it’s much less than elsewhere. If I am wrong by all means, set me straight. The military has a proud history of being on the forefront of civil rights and military service opens the eyes of many less-exposed young men and women to other cultures and ethnicities.
The MRFF is a good organization with a good mission. Sometimes it’s good to “walk a mile” though. Statements like this demonize the military and are counter productive IMHO.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/13/10400037-afghanistan-combat-outpost-aryan-draws-protest?chromedomain=worldnews
What does this have to do with Religion? The Marine Scout Sniper Community “stole” the SS symbol years ago. Its been used for years as unofficial unit or team symbols. The photo in question is pretty stupid. Those guys should know better. But the Battalion Commander investigated it and decided it was innocent and not part of any weird or Nazi sentiment.
Another over looked fact is this Battalion fought bravely for 7 months last year. Do you think the Battalion Commander should over look battlefield competence and bravery, for political correctness? Your so offended by a silly flag that guys don’t really care about its old meaning that you forget that we’re at war. I don’t think many of you on this site have a direct clue as to what a gun fight it like. Leave the Marines alone and go after the Theocrat’s Like this guys
:http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/02/military-3-star-presentation-reference-god-021712/
In reference to an article publised in MSNBC, Mrs. Rodda made the following statement:
“This is all part of the military’s culture of intolerance,” Rodda told msnbc.com. “We see it in regard to gender and race as well as religion.” She claimed Nazi symbolism was common in the military.
Mrs Rodda is generalizying from the actions of some bad apples to the entire armed forces of the Unted States. In fact, the US military is one of the most religious, racial and gender tolerant organizations in the United States. It was the one of the first intitutions to integrate the black and White Soldier in same units and internal organization wh en most private and government institutions still had segregation. I served over 21 years in the military and my ethnicity and religion were never an issue. I am catholic and Hispanic and I have seen a mutitude of races, religions, ethnic backgrounds, gender and socioeconomic status and these were neber brought up as an issue and differenc e by anyone around me. I served as infantry private in the United States Marine Corps and ended my career as a Major in Logistics. I have served in all components of the army, N ational Guard, Reserves and Active Duty and have served in the Far East, Pacific and Eastern portion of the United Sates. Again, to reiterate, I did not see this stated religious, racial and gender intolerance. So Mrs Rodda, please do not generalized and you the ” Military Religious Freedom Foundation” please do not allow others to generalized otherwise remove Military from your title.
Thank You