Media Coverage of MRFF’s Victory Getting Bibles on POW/MIA Tables Replaced with Blank Journals at All Lexington, Kentucky, VA Facilities
After a VA medical center in Lexington, Kentucky, removed its entire POW/MIA table display rather than remove the Gideons “New Testament — Psalms and Proverbs” from it, as a group of twelve veteran MRFF clients wanted, the executive director of the Lexington VA Health Care System made the right call.
In a November 28 letter, the system’s executive director informed Mikey Weinstein that Bibles will no longer be a part of POW/MIA table displays in ANY of the system’s facilities, but will be replaced by blank journals, writing in his letter:
“All table displays within VA Lexington Health Care System will contain the following: small table, white tablecloth, single rose, vase, yellow ribbon, slice of lemon, salt, bread plate, glass, candle, empty chair, and a journal.”
As expected, the Lexington VA’s decision to remove the Bibles from its POW/MIA displays has made MRFF’s enemies apoplectic with Christian nationalist outrage.
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you people are a disgrace, as well as ignorant. The constitution states freedom of religion, not from religion; by simply having a Bible on a table does not endorse a religion. Remember there are no atheist in a foxhole.
Roy: it is disgraceful of you to make false statements about the constitution and constitutional law regarding freedom of religion. First, the establishment clause was included in the first amendment specifically to acknowledge that freedom of religion requires freedom from government establishment or endorsement of religion. And the clause prohibits establishment of religion in general – not just establishment of a particular religion rather than others. The author of the first amendment (Madison) based it on Jefferson’s Virginia Stature For Religious Freedom, which also included provisions ensuring freedom of religion by prohibiting anyone from being compelled to support any ministry. That means that taxpayers (the people who make the VA possible) can’t be compelled to display religious texts at facilities they pay for and use.
Why is the establishment clause in there? Because anyone who knows what goes on around the world and anyone familiar with world history knows that there has never been a country where government endorses or passes laws endorsing religion and where there is religious freedom. Never happened and never will. Jefferson and Madison stated explicitly that they knew this, and that this fact informed their writing of the Virginia and federal laws regarding freedom of religion. In short, the constitution does include a right to freedom from religion.
And having a Bible on the table obviously endorses religion. It also endorses a specific religion, as such Bible is always a Christian Bible. If a Qur’an was placed on the table, you wouldn’t claim it didn’t endorse a religion, so your claim that a Christian Bible doesn’t endorse a religion is dishonest and false.
I meant to type “Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom.”
Jeff, poor old Roy Williams has been bamboozled by the faux historians Dave and Tim Barton.
There was a MRFF supporter – Pastor Joan was her name I believe. She had the most detailed explanation as to why the First Amendment was written the way it was. Your words reminded me of her. As she’d say – bless your socks off.
Thanks Jeff. Needed the positive energy tonight.
Grey One: you can definitely see in the comments here the clear echo of the Bartons’ (and others) false propaganda about American history and the relationship of religion and government. They are in the business of The Big Lie, and they know that if a lie is repeated often enough and loud enough, a lot of gullible people will believe it. I always get positive energy from your posts, so I’m glad I could return the favor. Keep on keeping on!
You people will NOT destroy this country with your propaganda and George Soros backing. This country was founded under Christianity and one country under God. Men who believe that they know more than God always end up on the short end of the stick. Who spreads more propaganda, you and your agenda or the US govt? There are more religions on this planet than you can possibly imagine. Do you represent them all? NO, just your viewpoints. Too bad the VA didn’t have the balls to tell you to go pound sand. Putting out a Bible doesn’t establish a religion and I would love to see you clowns prove that it does. Does saying God Bless You when someone sneezes make you a religious zealot or right wing nut? You people don’t care. Just another bunch left wing nut jobs with an agenda against conservative Christians which founded and defended this country. If you’ve ever been in battle, you know there are no atheists. Good luck making everyone miserable. You seem to have a natural talent. Hopefully, you’ll be sent back to whatever Godless country that still appreciates the Godless.
And study American history a little harder. The American govt has endorsed Christian values and beliefs from the very beginning. What left wing history are you reading? Even George Washington was a devoted Christian not Muslim or Jewish.
Bryant: you need to open a history book and actually read the founding document of our country – the constitution. George Washington was a deist, not a Christian. So were Jefferson, Franklin, Monroe, and Madison. Madison wrote the first amendment.
Promoting anti-Jewish bigotry by spewing conspiracy nonsense about George Soros is beneath even commenting on here. But you revealed the real reason MRFF angers you. Your hostility to atheists shows you don’t believe in religious freedom for all as guaranteed by our constitution. You clearly believe in Christian privilege and domination, which is anti-constitution and anti-American.
If you want a country where the government promotes religion, I’d be happy to provide you with a one-way ticket to Iran or Saudi Arabia. Only when you arrive there will you begin to understand what you seem incapable of understanding now – that rights have to apply to everyone equally. That’s what the MRFF does – it protects your religious freedom as well as mine. It’s a shame you don’t understand the danger to your rights as well as mine by wishing for government to push religion on its citizens. Some people only see a danger when it’s too late to save them from it, sadly.
Oh, and the founding of our government didn’t endorse Christian values. See the Treaty of Tripoli. The constitution doesn’t even mention a god, much less Christianity. That’s not an accident.
Out of Bryant’s pie-hole, “If you’ve ever been in battle, you know there are no atheists.” Of course there are atheists in the military – many of them, and the numbers are growing, daily, owing to incoherent posts like yours! People don’t want to be associated with the abject cognitive dissonance of the Christian right! I mean, look at Paula White! I like hearing her circular repetition of made up phrases. It’s kind of entertaining. And her speaking in tongues is hilarious! But, bat-shit doesn’t begin to describe the loonacy! She well represents the Christian Nationalist grift, er, I mean, gift to the calling!
Are you saying the military excludes atheists from battle? That would actually be a good thing. Conservative Christians start our wars, so let’s let the conservative Christians go fight them! On your bike then!
“Hopefully you’ll be sent back to whatever Godless country that still appreciates the Godless.” That would be…..wait for it……America! Surprise! Were already here!
And who’s doing the “sending” in your delusional fantasy?
Saying “God bless you,” when someone sneezes? In your case, I wouldn’t call you a zealot, yet, but borrowing your words, right-wing nut seems to fit!
This country was NOT founded on anything to do with God! It’s a secular nation. You read the Constitution lately? Warning, there are a few four syllable words in it!
“You people will NOT destroy this country with your gaslighting, projection, and Charles Koch backing!”
Bryant says, “Men that know more than God?” Depends on the subject (if you’re Christian).
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” – Richard Dawkins
So yeah, the God of the Bible seems to know a lot …… about the misery infliction index, he being at the top of it. I understand he went to rehab between testaments and has found a kindler, gentler version of himself! Also understand he gave up Bud Light and has dropped a few pounds! But he’s pretty old now. 14.5 billion years is a very long time.
There are some pretty good vids available on the founding of the country as it relates to the mythos of the Christian God. Might want to check them out!
“The American govt has endorsed Christian values and beliefs from the very beginning.” Give us a few specific examples.
Every time a theocrat says something like that (usually it’s more like “America was founded on Christian principles”) I ask them which specific principles unique to Christianity they’re referring to.
I NEVER get an answer, probably because it might lead to a comparison between “Christian principles” and the principles on which the US constitution was actually based, which were an attempt to prevent the repression prevalent in European monarchies.
Here’s a comparison
MONARCHY
All power comes from above: God > king, king > subjects, and it’s unlimited
Some people are inherently superior to others
Everyone has to follow the religion the authorities impose on them
Truth is what the authorities say it is, and no one is allowed to question that
The people exist to serve their “superiors”
US CONSTITUTION
Government derives its power from the consent of the governed
Everyone has equal rights: no one is inherently “better” than anyone else
Anyone can believe in whatever religion (or none) they choose, and government can’t favor any religion over another
Truth is best found by free debate, where anyone can question any belief
Government exists to serve the people
Which of those two sets of “principles” is more similar to those of Christianity, or organized religion in general?
Bryant will probably ignore Jeff’s “See the Treaty of Tripoli,” so here’s the relevant part of it.
George Washington’s State Department began negotiations completed by John Adams’ State Department for the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797.
The treaty, which was ratified by the US Senate unanimously without debate, states “the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.”
Can you imagine what a national outcry there would be from Bryant and other theocrats if the current US government even considered officially stating that?
Roy Williams: Remember there are no atheist in a foxhole.”
Bryant: “If you’ve ever been in battle, you know there are no atheists.”
Did they both talk to EVERY soldier in EVERY battle and EVERY foxhole to verify that NONE of them were atheists, or are they just showing us another example of the authoritarian “Truth is what the authorities say it is” attitude?