Wreaths
From: (name withheld)
Subject: Wreaths
Date: December 14, 2021 at 5:42:10 PM MST
To: [email protected]
No one has given you “consent” to speak for the rest of us. The Wreaths Across America effort is a beautiful tribute to our service members, including my family members. Please don’t presume to push your anti-Christian views on the rest of us. The only thing “Christian” about placing Christmas wreaths on service members’ graves is the expression of love and compassion that it takes to give that gift to the nation.
What a sad scrooge you are.
(name withheld)
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Martin France
On Dec 14, 2021, at 6:08 PM, Martin France wrote:
Dear (name withheld) ,No one GAVE Wreaths Across America and their volunteers the RIGHT to presume that every dead service member and their survivors want a Christian symbol on their graves. If Christmas is a Christian holiday, then how can a “Christmas wreath” (your own words) NOT be a Christian symbol. We are not pushing our anti-Christian beliefs on anyone because we don’t have “anti-Christian beliefs.” We believe in the Constitution and the Establishment Clause. We BELIEVE that the anti-American and anti-Constitutional action here is on the part of WAA and its volunteers that are PUSHING their Christian beliefs on the graves of those who can do nothing to stop them.We do not doubt that some are blindly doing this out of love and a sense of goodwill. And, if the survivors of those buried in these cemeteries agreed to have their loved-ones’ graves decorated with a Christmas Wreath, then we wouldn’t be involved in this. We’d let it happen and endorse the accountability it would reflect.But, we cannot stand idly by when a group just decides for themselves that EVERY grave in the cemetery needs a Christian symbol on their grave for a CHRISTIAN holiday–when not all of those buried there are Christians or even religious.Think of some symbol with which you or one of your loved ones might not like associated with them, but is still a symbol held in some level of respect or honor by others. Could be a confederate flag, a rainbow flag, a green Muslim flag or Star of David, a wiccan black hat, a Klan-adorned or labeled cross, a Buddhist string of flags, or a Swastika. Every one of these symbols have their supporters–like it or not. And every one of these have been used at some time to adorn a grave in order to honor the person buried there.Now, ask yourself this: If a group adorned EVERY grave in a cemetery that includes members of my family with this symbol out of a sense honor and goodwill, would you be okay with that? If your dad was straight, but his grave had a rainbow flag? If your best friend was Jewish, but a Klan cross was put on their grave, or if your Black friend’s son’s grave was adorned with the “Stars and Bars.” How would you feel? Wreaths may make for a pretty photo, but I think rainbow flags would, too. Don’t you?All that we ask is that the wreath-layers ASK and not ASSUME. We are not all Christians. We do not all celebrate Christmas. We don’t ALL want strangers to decorate the graves of our family members because we see that as a personal, family decision.What a presumptuous bigot you are.
Sincerely,Marty France, PhDBrigadier General, USAF (Retired) MRFF Advisory Board Member
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 15:10 (name withheld) wrote:
Just stopYou know as well as I do that Christmas is as much a secular holiday as a Christian holiday. Santa and reindeer and elves and snowmen are not religious anymore than a wreath of spruce boughs. Jesus was born in the flipping desert after all, I doubt that there was a pine tree within 100 miles. If it offends you that much, look the other way. Don’t ruin the sentiment of decorating veterans graves to show respect.
My friend was right. He said “Mikey” was a PIA back in the service as well, and that it is no surprise that he is doing this now.
And you may think that slapping your brass on the table here will impress me, but it doesn’t. I would say that you should be wearing a snowflake on your shoulder instead.
(name withheld)
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Martin France
On Dec 15, 2021, at 5:29 PM, Martin France wrote:
Great arguments, (name withheld)! You’ve convinced me that a Jewish family would welcome a Christmas wreath on their hero’s grave. Same for the Hindus and Atheists and Muslims. It’s your compelling name-calling that won me over. Halloween is a secular holiday, so I imagine that a nice black witch’s hat will one day be welcomed on your grave. Well-played, Dr!
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 5:32 PM (name withheld) wrote:
Ahhhhh!
Like when you called me a bigot?
You are such a wonderful representative of your organization.
(name withheld)
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 19:01 (name withheld) wrote:
Marty,
Your reactions have made me laugh tonight, so I thank you for that. Thank you also for so well representing the USAF and your non-profit. As far as ad hominem, you started it really; but insults will get you nowhere.
So why don’t we discuss the actual issue, shall we?
The custom of bringing evergreens home during the winter began in the sixteenth century among northern and eastern Europeans, with Germans commonly credited with starting the tradition. Before the wreath became associated with Christmas, it was a prominent emblem of victory and power in ancient Greece and Rome. A wreath has always been traditionally a band of intertwined flowers, greenery, or leaves worn as a mark of honor or victory. Presidents have laid wreaths on the graves of heroes for decades. One can hardly call a wreath a Christian symbol. The fact that these are “Christmas wreaths” because they are composed of evergreen branches with a red bow hardly make them a representation of Christianity. They are simply an honoring of our military heroes within the traditions of the secular season.
Your comparison to blanketing the National Cemeteries with rainbow flags, witches hats, the Star of David, etc are logical fallacy. Shall we wait to see if the government decides to place BLM or Antifa flags (since those are not traditional methods of honoring someone) before we make such comparisons? Now, if you are complaining about someone putting crucifixes on the graves, your comparison might have value. I suppose that the next thing that you will object to is the placing of small American flags on veterans’ graves on the Fourth of July? After all, there seems to have been a lot of protesting about our national flag and anthem of late.
Seriously though, as a representative of your organization, you should try to improve your argument with dialectic rather than rhetoric.
I am sorry that Christmas or anything representative of it offends you so much. Perhaps an answer to your problem might be to suggest that anyone who does not want their loved one’s grave decorated at all, should notify the national cemetery, which can then provide a list to any organization like the Boy Scouts who may wish to place flags, or WAA who may wish to place wreaths of honor.
Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays, if you prefer that.
(name withheld)
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Martin France
On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:20 PM, Martin France wrote:
(name withheld), I really do think that strangers shouldn’t decorate the graves of anyone with any symbol. It’s just not appropriate and is presumptuous. Your idea of survivors stating they don’t want their loved ones grave decorated is backwards, too. You shouldn’t have to opt out. If you choose to opt in, then fine. One could say that by choosing a religious emblem on a tombstone, one is doing that in some way. At a bare minimum, wreaths shouldn’t be placed on graves that do not have a Christian cross on them.Many non-Christians, and our clients object to what we see from our perspective as Christians decorating public land with one of their symbols. We can disagree if a wreath is a Christian symbol, but when the supplier, the Worcester Wreath Co states on their own site that they supply Christmas wreaths to WAA, it sure seems to me that they are Christian symbols. When they are placed just before Christmas, then that adds weight to the argument. There are plenty of winter symbols that can’t in any way be interpreted as religious. Snowmen come to mind.That so many feel as we at the MRFF tells me that the burden of proof should fall on the placers of the wreaths. If someone puts something I don’t want on my father’s grave, that’s not my fault and shouldn’t be on me or my family to ask others to stop defacing (in our view) his grave. I’d expect my sons and descendants to treat my grave the same way.Just don’t put stuff on the graves of people you don’t know! Even flags.Take that money and effort and do something productive–giving it to one of many veteran’s and dependents’ support groups.Sincerely,Marty
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Martin France
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 18:35 Martin France wrote:
When you discriminate and presume about others, you’re a bigot. Have a superb solstice!
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Martin France
On Dec 15, 2021, at 6:41 PM, Martin France wrote:
What do you want, really? Do you want objects placed on graves by strangers without any consideration of the buried or their families?! Really? To serve what purpose? If you can’t be sure that buried or their family would consider it honor, then it’s just not the right thing to do.
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 19:28 (name withheld) wrote:
Marty,Thank you for your tempered reply. So you seem to be stuck on the fact that Worcester Wreath Co states that they supply “Christmas wreaths” to WAA. Therefore, that makes them Christian wreaths? Is Santa Claus a Christian? Are reindeer and snowmen Christian? So your objection is in the name Christmas, rather than a wreath itself? So you don’t object to the POTUS laying a wreath on the tomb of the Unknown Soldier? It is the term of the season, rather than the wreath itself?
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Martin France
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 6:46 PM Martin France wrote:
The season and the design (red and green) of the wreath and the mission of the organization, supplier, and sponsor (Jersey Mike’s Subs) all talk about Christmas wreaths. If they were just wreaths with no religious connotation, then why not do it in March or August or October? POTUS places a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns on a national holiday that has no religious connections.
Yes, WAA is about Christmas.
Many see it as secular and seasonal. I get that. I’ll cook a big meal on 25 Dec for my family. I admit to being a “cultural Christian,” but still an Atheist. I have a specific directive in my will to not have anything religious associated with my death and disposition of my body. I don’t want religious decorations. I served the Constitution, so the flag is appropriate as a symbol of same.
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 19:55 (name withheld) wrote:
Marty
Interesting. I never thought about the term “cultural Christian”, especially not in concert with “atheism”. So you don’t like red and green, or you don’t like the season itself? You object to the secular holiday of Christmas? You object to Santa Claus, maybe even “Toys for Tots” which I donate to every year? What if the Worcester Wreath Co. called them “Holiday wreaths”? Would that still give you pause?
I see them as a symbol of a grateful nation honoring its military heroes with wreaths of honor. You apparently see something sinister.
(name withheld)
Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Marty France
I object to the government getting involved with a religious holiday. I don’t mind many of the trappings, but I don’t like the presumption that I buy into the religious side of it. Okay with Toys for Tots so long as the gifts go to ALL kids and service members are coerced into participating (hint: many are). I know. My son was a Marine and couldn’t “opt out.”If WAA made them red, white, and blue and put them on graves on New Year’s Day, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
(name withheld)