You are sick and disturbed human beings
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This post was created on the previous version of the MRFF website, and may not be fully accessible to users of assistive technology. If you need help accessing this content, please reach out via email.You are sick and disturbed human beings – there is little truth , light or life in you . How dare you condemn a US officer for praying for his troupes ? The man was praying for God’s LOVE to protect and surround them . And that is a bad thing, in your eyes ? How very arrogant and unloving .
I agree with you that forcibly proselytizing people
who signal that they do not want to hear what you have to share , is WRONG . But sharing ideas is a Constitutionally protected right in this Country ! We’re exposed to all kinds of things on a regular basis , that offend and disturb us . So What – this is America . We have freedoms and rights .
(name withheld)
Thomas Jefferson , in his own words , used the phrase , ” Wall of Separation” ( not in the Constitution ) to PROTECT the Baptists in Danbury from being hindered by the government from exercising their religious beliefs . He most certainly believed in their 1st amendment right to practice that faith . Please read the entire letter . In other words, the 1st Amendment was established to prevent the government from meddling in the free exercise of an American’s religion . NOT to repress religious expression.
It did not mean – separation of State from religious belief and moral principles , nor quashing of public expression of personal faith . The First Amendment prevented the Establishment of a State Church , as existed in France , England and Spain that might force Americans to bow to it’s dictates.
(name withheld)
Dear (name withheld),
George Washington prayed with his men BEFORE the Constitution was written and the subsequent laws and regulations that rule us today.
Separation of Church and State:
“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802
“Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
“The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
~Founding Father James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”
And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
~Founding Father James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
“Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance.”
~Founding Father James Madison, letter, 1822
“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”
~Founding Father James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical
Endowments
Joan Slish
Joan,
I don’t believe at all , for the record , in the Dominionist type of Christianity , in the sense of an the Establishment of one religion as a State religion in this Country . I’ve never been around one – and in all my years have never heard that promoted or preached . It’s certainly not in the Baptist Church . I agree with you
however , to believe that that belief system is dominant in the Christian religion because people wish to pray in public or make public speeches about their faith . George Washington prayed in public as well as several other prominent American military men . d I’ve honestly personally experience quite a bit of domineering
repressive type of thinking from various Jews in our community towards Christ and Christians, and seen them go out of their way to silence them . Hostility that is almost completely irrational . It certainly was not tolerant . Christianity is a belief system of peace , kindness and love . Caring for others . It is not a
threat to Judaism .
I’ve even heard that Christian Chaplains are not allowed to pray in Jesus’s Name with soldiers who are Christians – even those who are wounded or going off to battle . This is out and out repression . Speaking about Jesus – is NOT undermining the effective ness of response to command . If anything it
reinforces the duty of a soldier to respect and obey a superior officer . Please show us where this has NOT been the case . When someone exhorts Christian soldiers to rely for their protection on God and on their faith in Jesus , at a PRIVATE ceremony , that is a normal part of their faith . It is an act of
caring and love . It is not a threat to ANYONE !
The ridiculous reaction Mr. Weinstein had over this poor man’s action is just part and partial of his irrational bigotry .
Our Founding Fathers would be absolutely horrified to see how their Bill of Rights have been abused in this day and age. It is not what they intended at all .
(name withheld)
Lady, do yourself and the world a favor and come join the rest of us in the 21st century.
Btw – like Major General Olson, your writings to me are being broadcast all over the world by the MRFF – not GOD TV – because we have liaisons on almost every base in the world and supporters, too.
I’ve wasted enough of my time trying to educate you but you want to live to live in the past.
Joan
Major General Olson violated both the separation of church and state and U.S. Air Force regulations. Religious proselytizing is not “sharing ideas.” It is specifically prohibited by military regulations unless done in the proper time, place and manner. Had he chosen to speak as he did in civilian clothing, rather than appearing as a representative of the U.S. military, and had he spoken of his personal faith instead of urging the leaders of the Department of Defense and all U.S. troops to “depend on Christ,” there would have been no problem. Unfortunately, he did not.
You are correct, this is America. And clearly, we have freedoms and rights. But in order to protect those rights it is necessary to operate by the rules. No one, when representing our government, can promote one religious view over another. To do so when in a position of authority in the military is wrong.
I hope that helps you better understand the situation.
Mike Farrell
(MRFF Board of Advisors)
Dear Mike
Thank you for your apology.
If I may, let me suggest that you consider the fact that you were upset to the point of being intemperate because of the strength of your feelings about Mr. Weinstein’s comments. When doing so, please put yourself in Mr. Weinstein’s shoes for a minute and
think about what he experiences every day: accusations that he hates Christ; that he is anti-Christian; that he is Satan; that he and his wife and children should die ugly deaths. Death threats, vile antisemitism, slander and vitriol I won’t repeat here out of respect
for you rain on him (and to a lesser degree on those of us who support the mission of the MRFF) every day.
Mr. Weinstein took up this issue and ended up establishing the MRFF because of a plague of bigotry on the part of a fundamentalist Christian sect that has infiltrated our military and is attempting to infiltrate its way into a position of power and authority
contrary to our laws. The efforts and intentions of this group directly contravene the laws and traditions of our government, but because the group claims to be Christian – actually they claim to be the only true Christianity – when one speaks out against their devious behavior it is
cast as attacking Christianity. This creates a defensive response from others who identify as Christians and may be unaware of the true nature of this fundamentalist sect, but the result is, sadly, these attacks. The attacks, probably born out of a desire to defend
one’s faith, are often ugly, brutal and deeply offensive, as suggested above. However, they are sometimes, I find, made by people who simply don’t understand the full picture and, with a bit of explanation, can be mollified.
and behavior.
if not happy, to share with you some of the messages we’ve received from Christians you’ve apparently managed to avoid knowing. And
I’m afraid this exchange has grown tiresome. It has been my hope that there would be some value in reaching out to you, some sense
that you were open to the possibility of entertaining a new perspective. Apparently I was wrong.
Mike Farrell
(MRFF Board of Advisors)
Dear (name withheld),
I’m afraid I’m beginning to have trouble understanding you. What are you suggesting I should do when you say I “seem unwilling to even meet halfway”? I think I’m pretty good at understanding “things from another point of view.” But understanding them doesn’t mean I have to agree with them. I don’t. What you claim to be the case is wrong.
Yes, you apologized for your intemperate words. I not only accepted your apology, I thanked you for it. However, when you later stated that you “have never known a Christian who wasn’t uniformly considerate – loving, kind and respectful,” I felt it appropriate to point out that you not only know such a Christian, you are one. And, importantly, you are not the only one.
I thought it might be helpful for you to keep that in mind when making such all-encompassing assurances.
Now, it appears you want me to better understand your words because they “were in response to what many believe is unwarranted and excessive punishment which is in itself ‘cruel and vicious.’” “Can’t you see this?” you ask. Well, of course I certainly see what you’re saying, but I disagree. First of all, what “many believe” is not a standard for arriving at the truth. What “many believe,” in this case, is simply wrong.
Mr. Weinstein doesn’t have the authority to court martial anyone. He did not “try to Court Martial someone,” he did he intend to “ruin (his) career,” nor did he “threaten… (him) with ruin.” What he did do, when he recognized a gross breach of the rules on the part of a general officer who certainly should know better, was to call for the appropriate response, which in this case is a court martial.
You’d like for me to accept that calling for a court martial as a result of Major General Olson’s breach of the law and violation of U.S. Air Force regulations is “cruel” and “vindictive.” I do not, because it is not. It is entirely up to the officers conducting the court martial to determine what, if any, penalty should be levied.
You characterize what Major General Olson said as a prayer. What he said was that leaders in the Department of Defense “need to humbly depend on Christ.” That is hardly a prayer; it is an assertion that the leaders of the military, no matter their personal belief systems, need to depend on Jesus, in other words, to become Christians.
That, I will assume, is what Major General Olson believes, but it is not his to assert in public, while in uniform, and on television, when it has not been made clear he is speaking for himself and not the military. You see, that is promoting one religious belief over all others and doing so is contrary to the law, Air Force regulations and his duty as an Air Force officer.
Now, you say you know some Christians “who shake their hands in amazement at the kind of demonizing groups like Mr. Weinstein’s do.” The MRFF is dedicated to protecting the religious freedom of the women and men in the military. It opposes attempts on the part of zealous individuals or groups to use positions of authority within the military to press, proselytize, intimidate, frighten, cow, or bully people into accepting, or feeling as though they have to pretend to accept, a belief system that is not their own. Opposing violations of the law and military regulations is not demonizing. If Mr. Weinstein or anyone else uses strong language when making the case, it is because these violations and the intimidation behind them, threaten the integrity of our constitution and with it our government.
I don’t know the organization Jews on First, so I can’t speak for them, but to suggest Mr. Weinstein or the MRFF “is full of so much hate” is not only wrong it is libelous and stupid. Whoever tells you these things is giving you bad information and it’s disappointing to see you parrot them. For reasons I’ve listed above and in prior messages to you, it’s fair to say Mr. Weinstein is angry; he’s angry at the bigotry, the abuse, the threats against himself and his family and the vulgar, dishonest campaign being waged against him and the MRFF. But he’s even more angry about the sly, devious, underhanded effort on the part of a slick, ambitious, self-important sect of so-called Christians who are trying to undermine the U.S. Constitution and impose their intolerant religious viewpoint on the women and men in our military. And I don’t blame him. I’m angry about it, too. It makes me sick to read, see and hear from these pathetic, frightened, small-minded bigots who call themselves Christians while spewing hatred in Jesus’ name.
To your other points – it is frankly galling to read your attempt to justify raw anti-Semitism by claiming to find acceptable the “many unbiased, mostly non-political, religious Jews… the ones who follow the Torah… Or simply secular Jews who are good people.” May I assume it’s the political Jews, those who don’t qualify as “loving and caring human beings,” those who don’t meet your standard of “secular Jews who are good people,” the “bullying, and domineering” Jews that you believe attempt “to silence Christian points of view” that it’s all right to hate?
Frankly, Ms. Rimmer, this stuff is hard to read and pathetic to realize you think this way and call yourself a Christian. Not, of course, the “Country Club type,” may I add.
Add to that your pitiful descent into the wholesale dismissal of “the large groups of Hispanic Catholics, now in this Country… (their) increasing disrespect… towards people of other faiths.”
I’m sorry, ma’am, but your level of intolerance and the circumlocution you stoop to in order to justify it simply makes me ill.
You have certainly, per your last sentence, clarified some things for me. And it’s not a pretty picture. I am, at this point, sorry I’ve bothered.
Mike Farrell
(MRFF Board of Advisors.)
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