Wreaths

From: (name withheld)

Subject: Wreaths

Date: December 16, 2021 at 3:21:35 PM MST

To: [email protected]

For my deceased Jewish in-laws I feel that NOT placing wreaths on Jewish graves is discriminatory.
Wreaths can have many meanings and there is not a mention in the Bible about wreaths being a Christian symbol. Indeed the main mention of a wreath is in the Hebrew Scriptures where in 1 Kings 7:36 it mentions Solomon adorning the temple with wreaths ( “On the surfaces of its stays and on its borders he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, where each had space, with wreaths all round.”). I believe that placing wreaths simply honors veterans for their service.

Thank you for listening.

(name withheld)

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Response from MRFF Supporter Rabbi Joel Schwartzman

On Dec 16, 2021, at 8:04 PM, Rabbi Joel Schwartzman wrote:

Dear (name withheld):

This time of year brings religious sensitivities to the fore.  The wreath project has electrified and disturbed many of us.  First of all, I believe that placing wreaths on graves whose loved ones don’t want them is a violation of their Constitutional, First Amendment rights.  This is federal property, not a private cemetery.

Allow me, please to go one step further. Discrimination cuts both ways.  Solomon may have had ‘laurels’ fashioned but there no Xmas in Solomon’s day anyway, so that argument is mute. 

As a rabbi whose repose will someday be in Arlington National Cemetery, I hope that my grave will never be so sullied by any wreaths.  My relatives may light yahrzeit candles and place stones on my headstone because these are legitimate, time honored Jewish customs, but never, ever, would they want or tolerate a wreath.  It just isn’t a Jewish thing.  It isn’t any part of Jewish practice.

It would be far better were this operation to require permissions for this reputed money making project that insults and even denigrates many non-Christian families and their loved ones who fought for this county.  What we are asking for at the bottom line is a little respect for our beliefs, customs and sensitivities.

Rabbi Joel R. Schwartzman

Ch, Col, (Ret), USAF

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Response from MRFF Board Member John Compere

On Dec 16, 2021, at 8:34 PM, John Compere wrote:

(name withheld):
Please be advised those religious wreaths are advertised as “Christmas” wreaths, sold as “Christmas” wreaths and provided to be placed during “Christmas”. “Christmas” is Latin for “Christ’s mass” which is a Christian religious ceremonial. It is disingenuous to claim they do not have a religious connotation.
There are families of deceased military veterans who do not want a religious organization to which they do not belong or support profiting, promoting its religion & marketing itself by presumptuously putting its religious wreaths on the graves of their deceased loved one without permission. Those families consider it uninvited & unwanted intrusions on the personal burial sites of their deceased family members.
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (composed of 85% Christians) represents, when requested, the religious freedom rights of those families to object & prevent what they believe to be thoughtless trespassing on the graves of their deceased military veterans. We do so because we respect the wishes of those military families & the religious group responsible for the religious wreaths does not. We believe religious freedom is a shield of protection & never a sword of privilege. For more information, please see militaryreligiousfreedom.org.
Sincerely,Brigadier John Compere, US Army (Retired)Disabled American Veteran (Vietnam Era)Board Member, Military Religious Freedom Foundation

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Response from MRFF Founder and President Mikey Weinstein

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 5:27 PM Mikey Weinstein wrote:

…..Keep an open mind and read this pls….

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/12/6/2067841/-so-called-non-profit-claims-its-xmas-wreaths-but-sells-them-as-xmas-wreaths

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On Dec 16, 2021, at 3:42 PM, (name withheld) wrote:
You did not answer any of my points  – hope you will keep an open mind as well. The scriptures carry more weight than any practice by a current organization.

(name withheld)

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Response from MRFF Founder and President Mikey Weinstein

On Dec 16, 2021, at 5:49 PM, Michael L Weinstein wrote:

…no sir!!!!….the Scriptures actually carry NO weight when measured against the U.S. Constitution’s mandated separation of church and state….THAT is the WHOLE point, (name withheld)!!!!…sorry, I just do not have much more time to chat with you, sir….others on our staff may try to help explain our views more to you…..an open mind WILL be needed by you!!…Mikey

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On Dec 16, 2021, at 6:55 PM, (name withheld) wrote:

I can see both sides so I do have an open mind but when I went to Arlington Cemetery and saw the Jewish graves neglected without wreaths it made me sad. 
I can see I am not worth your time and that you definitely have a closed mind.  I am not interested in your party line.
Sorry that you are not even able to dialogue- after all I am talking about the Hebrew Scriptures here and I thought you were standing up for the Jewish people. Guess not.

(name withheld)

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Response from MRFF Founder and President Mikey Weinstein

From: Michael L Weinstein
Subject: Wreaths
Date: December 16, 2021 at 7:09:10 PM MST
To: (name withhelld)

You wound me with your denigrating statements my friend… That was not necessary… I did not mean any offense by indicating that I am really busy right now… I also indicated that some other of our key staff members all of them are amazing as human beings might be able to reach out and supplement this… I apologize if you were offended because that was not my intent…

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Response from MRFF Founder and President Mikey Weinstein

On Dec 16, 2021, at 11:05 PM, Michael L Weinstein wrote:

We are used to threats… But this time they are off the scale… Here is one example of a threat that has been sent to law-enforcement/FBI…

<AUDIO_7808.m4a>

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On Dec 16, 2021, at 9:32 PM, (name withheld) wrote:
I also am sorry if I offended you because that was not my intent.

I also think the threats are disgraceful and I am acutely aware of the anti-semitic implications of the threats because I married a Jewish woman and obviously have Jewish in-laws.

That said, I do not agree with your campaign to eliminate wreaths on Jewish graves. I agree if they are Christmas wreaths they should not be put on a Jewish grave but I still maintain that  they can also be “Temple wreaths” as they were placed on the Jewish temple –  again according to the Hebrew Scriptures in 1 Kings 7:36 where it mentions Solomon adorning the temple with wreaths ( “On the surfaces of its stays and on its borders he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, where each had space, with wreaths all round.”).

The interpretation is in the eyes of the beholder.

I don’t believe we will ever agree about this and I do know you are probably a busy person so let’s move on. I just hoped that you could see another perspective but I see that I am talking to a brick wall.

Have a joyous holiday season (I hope you don’t object to the words “Holiday season”)

(name withheld)

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Response from MRFF Founder and President Mikey Weinstein

From: Michael L Weinstein
Subject:(name withheld) because of the Fox News coverage we are facing much of this…
Date: December 16, 2021 at 9:47:02 PM MST
To: (name withheld)

…brutha, I am NOT a “brick wall”…”I just hoped that you could see another perspective”, you say???!!….POT MEET KETTLE!!!   :(  …MRFF reps almost 77,000 military personnel  and vets….95% ARE Christians….we have nearly 700 people who work here, paid and volunteers and about 84% ARE ALSO Christians….you just do NOT “get it”, Don!!…I truly feel you are waaaay too steeped in your unearned Christian privilege to underdstand how this feels to have a CLEARLY CHRISTIAN wreath desecrating your loved one’s grave??!!…you seem unable or unwilling to view this from the perspective of victims??!!…we are representing hundreds of vet families here….they are too afraid to come 4ward because of the attacks that they see we are taking at MRFF by the minute!!…we are used to it…they are not…..why are you SO incapable of seeing their/our view???!!…..again, it is possible that others on our MRFF staff can supplement what I’ve written to you…i just have no more time left as we are inundated here and under the usual attacks…..I do wish you are Merry Xmas and Happy New Year…..but try to UP your empathy and compassion game, eh??!!….best, Mikey W.

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Response from MRFF Supporter Fr. Steve Dundas

On Dec 16, 2021, at 10:39 PM, Steve wrote:
Dear (name withheld),
I am a friend and associate of Mr. Weinstein. I am a former Anglican and now Old Catholic retired Navy Chaplain. I see that you are semi-retired Episcopal Priest serving parishes in your area and I commend you for that.
However, I am surprised that a man with your theological education is so theologically lazy to cherry pick a verse, completely out of context from the Old Testament to throw at Mr. Weinstein.
You might have Jewish in-laws who have passed away, but you really have no understanding of Jewish practice. Likewise, you feel “that not placing wreaths on Jewish graves is discriminatory.” You can feel that way but that does not make it consistent with Jewish faith, custom, or tradition.
For someone who graduated from Yale Divinity School, I am surprised that you didn’t talk with one of your local Rabbis before writing this and then quoting the scripture. I would have, but then in addition to being a theologian and Priest who has spent the better part of his life in the pluralistic environments of the military and public hospitals, I am also a real life historian who has studied the toxic effects of religion in American history, as well as the Holocaust.
One of my best friends is a local Conservative Rabbi who heads one of the largest Synagogues in our area. He actually had me preach on the last Sabbath of Passover 2019 about a book that I am researching which has the tentative title “Walk, Remember, Bear Witness: Fighting Holocaust Denial in the Present Day.” It is a good thing that my primary professor at California State University, Northridge was an interpreter and interrogator at all of the Nuremberg War Crimes and subsequent trials in the American zone. Some of my Jewish historian friends say that I must be Jewish in my heart.
Likewise, my first book “Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: Religion and the Politics of Race inn the Civil War Era and Beyond” will be published by Potomac Books of University of Nebraska Press in the first part of 2022. It covers the more toxic and violent aspects of the Christian religion and race in the United States from the Colonial era to the present.
I was really surprised tonight,mbecause I always try to check out anybody who accosts Mr. Weinstein on matters of faith. I did not expect to find a man of your theological education and experience in ministry to forget everything he might know about hermeneutics and isogete a single verse, and take it completely out of context to support your pious assault on Mr. Weinstein.
That is bad theology, bad hermeneutics, and sloppy biblical scholarship. I guess that I am lucky to have attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary before the Fundamentalist takeover of 1994 because I got a first rate theological education that started me on my Catholic journey. But it also gave me a sound education in theology, biblical interpretation and hermeneutics, as well as religious liberty. By religious liberty I mean the kind that fought against State Churches, not the Christian Dominionists masquerading as Baptists today.
I intend no disrespect whatsoever to you, but my Lord I never expected to find an Episcopal Priest as the writer of this email. So I ask you, in the Name of Christ, before you go out and embarrass yourself like this again look at the context of the Scriptures you quote. Likewise, if it is a subject that affects people of a religion that is not yours, go ask a clergyman or woman of that faith before you presume to know their scriptures and tradition better than someone of that faith. What you did is the epitome of religious majority arrogance and intolerance.  Do you presume to know better than the Jews what their Scriptures and theology teaches?
I am sorry Father Donald, but I didn’t mean to get so worked up about this but I am a historian. I am fluent in German and have been to so many Nazi Concentration Camps, the Wannsee House, the Hadamar Euthanasia center, the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg, to some of the few surviving Jewish synagogues and cemeteries in Germany, as well as to the places where Germans who resisted the Nazis scarified their lives. So I could not let this go.
When it comes to the Constitution, religious freedom guaranteed in it by the Establishment Clause, which this wreath laying violates in so many ways, you don’t know shit from Shinola. Go ahead and say that Mr. Weinstein is “closed minded.” But then listen to the words of the great Virginia Baptist John Leland who as a member of a persecuted religious community, whose congregations were being attacked during worship services by Episcopalians trying to reestablish themselves as the State religion of Virginia after independence. Those people went to Baptist meetings, attacked them, and took their pastors, deacons and members to the nearest river, lake or stream to “re-baptize them until they nearly drowned or did drown. I guess that Episcopal Church history leaves that out.
Leland who worked with Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to craft the Virginia Statute on Religious Liberty, and Madison to craft the First Amendment. He wrote in 1804:
“The fondness of magistrates to foster Christianity, has done it more harm than all the persecutions ever did. Persecution, like a lion, tears the saints to death, but leaves Christianity pure: state establishment of religion, like a bear, hugs the saints, but corrupts Christianity, and reduces it to a level with state policy.”
The blanketing of government owned and taxpayer funded cemeteries with wreaths that are an expression that even the Puritans would have rejected, and they were Christian theocrats.
I am sorry to get so worked up, but what you did to Mr. Weinstein was reprehensible for a man of your theological education and experience.
As a nearly 40 year combat veteran who served in the Army and Navy, spent 7 years with the Fleet Marine Force, and worked in major military and civilian medical centers, always working in pluralistic environments I don’t get your inability to see this, but all of your work has been in parish ministry. Sadly, the cocoon of long term parish ministry sometimes puts blinders on even good people, and having watched and listened to some of your messages I presume you to be a good, but misinformed person.
So I wish you a Merry Christmas and no ill will at all. Our lives have been lived on different paths, ai just wish that you could see the pain that your feelings bring upon the Jewish people and others simply because you do not talk the time to seek the truth as to what they believe.
Sincerely,
Fr. Steve Dundas, Commander, Chaplain Corps, U.S. Navy (Retired)

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From: (name withheld)
Subject: Re: (name withheld) because of the Fox News coverage we are facing much of this…
Date: December 16, 2021 at 11:41:09 PM MST
To: Michael L Weinstein <[email protected]>

Dear Michael,
Father Steve indicated that had I caused you pain by my comments and for that I apologize and am truly sorry. That was not my intent. 
I respect what you are trying to do and I would never want to hurt you.I am very concerned about the rise of antisemitism and this country and elsewhere and would want to be on the side of fighting against anything that smacks of that.
If in anyway I was insensitive please except this as my sincere apology.

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Response from MRFF Supporter Rabbi Joel Schwartzman

On Dec 17, 2021, at 7:08 AM, Rabbi Joel Schwartzman wrote:
Dear (name withheld): Sorry for offending you through not spelling out ‘Christmas.’ I simply do not agree with your Biblical assessment and find it a bizarre justification for what is taking place with this wreath laying business at the very least.  If these aren’t Christmas wreaths, then why the rush to place them at this time of year?  Why not choose an anomalous time like September or May?  The association to me, even if this practice would in any way be acceptable which I contend it is not, is crystal clear.  I see it as tantamount to what the Mormons have attempted to do by converting Jewish dead.  It is a statement not of honor and recognition as you contend.  It is rather an imposition of one religion’s symbols on the graves of those not of that religion whose customs are entirely other. That you would be happy were people to place stones on your head stone is entirely beside the point.  Many non-Jews have adopted Jewish customs.  That’s their right and privilege as free people.  This wreath business is as far from what I would condone as eating pork chops.  So there you have our difference.  You are certainly free to defend wreaths being placed on your relatives’ graves.  I do not and would not.  If I were to find a wreath on my rabbinic uncle’s grave, I would be offended and even horrified.  He fought in WWII and would come roaring out of his grave to reject this symbolic offering.  For, you see and justify this wreath business…and it definitely has been characterized as a business one way.  I as a Jew and a rabbi see it entirely differently.  You can either continue to argue with me (and, perhaps, try to change my mind and attitude) or simply accept the fact that we’re never going to agree, Biblical citation or no, and move on. Be well, Rabbi Joel

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On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 10:19:25 PM CST, (name withheld) wrote:

Dear General Compere,
I never said they do not have a religious connotation. They do have a religious connotation in the Hebrew Scriptures and not in the Christian scriptures. I agree if they are Christmas wreaths they should not be put on a Jewish grave but they can also be “Solomon wreaths” or “Temple wreaths” as they were placed on the Jewish temple –  according to the Hebrew Scriptures in 1 Kings 7:36 where it mentions Solomon adorning the temple with wreaths ( “On the surfaces of its stays and on its borders he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, where each had space, with wreaths all round.”). The interpretation is in the eyes of the beholder. 
I think it is disgraceful to try to make a gesture of honor into “thoughtless trespassing.” Tell the objectors they are Temple Wreaths rather than trying to make a fund raising effort out of their objections.
I remain,

(name withheld)

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Response from MRFF Board Member John Compere

On Dec 17, 2021, at 7:38 AM, John Compere wrote:
The families whose graves are being decorated with someone else’s religious wreaths have the American religious freedom right to object & prevent the uninvited intrusions (or thoughtless trespassing) by those imposing the religious wreaths on their family graves without permission. They do not have to accept the inconsiderate impositions because you consider them some sort of “temple wreaths” & believe they should do so. We respect the wishes of those families because it is, after all, their family graves (i.e. not yours) & recommend you respect them also.

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From: (name withheld)
Dear General,
I appreciate your response and I did send an apology to Michael if in any way I caused him pain.
I am horrified by the rise of anti-semitism and I in no way want to do anything that would even have a hint of that. I think I was on the wrong side of the argument and I got carried away by the debate. I have never placed a wreath or anything on a grave that was not a family member. I do place a stone on my relatives graves in the Jewish tradition. 
 I don’t totally agree with you but I respect your position.

Thanks,

(name withheld)

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