MRFF Supporter Rabbi Joel Schwartzman engages with Christian who doesn’t think giant Jesus painting at Merchant Marine Academy should be covered up, citing the “Judeo-Christian faith” of America’s founders

Published On: January 29, 2023|Categories: MRFF's Inbox, Top News|13 Comments|
Rabbi Joel Schwartzman

From: (name withheld)
Subject: Merchant Marine painting
Date: January 25, 2023 at 3:24:18 PM MST
To: [email protected]

Mr. Weinstein:

I read about your efforts with the Merchant Marine painting. 

As far as the Constitution, you are right, Congress shall not establish religion. 

But groups like yours also fail to mention that Congress is not to prohibit the free exercise of religion, either. Whether a now-historical painting in a public place is that violation is debatable, IMO. 

However, group like yours also tend to target tax-paying, religious citizens from worship in public places, and that is damaging to the freedom we have in this country. And it appears to always be targeted at Christians. If I am wrong, please show me where other religions are being denied public access. 

You said in a piece I read:

“It’s as though USMMA is screaming that ‘Jesus Christ is the only approved solution to all of life’s difficulties.’”

I doubt that the military sees this painting that way after this many decades. Like the huge Jesus at Johns Hopkins, it’s probably more a historical piece. No offense, but it kind of sound like a talking point and melodramatic. But I digress. 

But, I would say to the second half of that comment (except for the word “approved”), that — sure — He IS the solution to all of life’s difficulties. I don’t know where I’d be right now without him.

Either way, Why do you hate Jesus so much? 

Or do you just wish to punish us Christians (I’d really like to know).

(name withheld)


Response from MRFF Supporter Rabbi Joel Schwartzman

(name withheld),

On Jan 25, 2023, at 7:02 PM, Rabbi Joel Schwartzman wrote:

Dear (name withheld):

Allow me to set the record straight from the outset.  The MRFF does not hate Christians.  What the MFRR abhors are the attempts that Supercessionist and Dominionist Christians make to ram their religion down the throats of people who work at federal institutions.  There are clear regulations, not counting what the First Amendment of the United States Constitution proscribes about religious persecution, that prohibit such behaviors.

On a second, related point that you raised about “the huge Jesus” at Johns Hopkins, I draw the distinction between Johns Hopkins being a private institution and the United States Merchant Marine Academy being clearly a federal institution.  Johns Hopkins is free to put whatever iconography on its campus it desires.  The Merchant Marine Academy is not.

Lastly, I shall begin closing by saying that I am happy that you have found a religious doctrine that helps you to fulfill your life. I think that is both admirable and clearly helpful to you.  Within the scope of what is outside the boundaries governed by the U.S. Constitution, you are free to evangelize and proselytize.  However, and regardless of however long the painting in question has hung at the Academy, it does not belong there anymore than mandatory prayer meetings and public religious expressions by the faculty and administration do.  This isn’t a matter of hatred of any particular religion.  It is the law, and that law protects the rights of all the cadets: Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc.; and cadets of no religion some of whom have also complained about the painting.

I trust you will understand the logic of what I have presented here.  As a retired Air Force chaplain, I certainly never operated under a banner or in the guise of hatred, and I know that the MRFF does not as well.

I wish you well,

Rabbi Joel R. Schwartzman


Response from (name withheld) to MRFF Supporter Rabbi Joel Schwartzman

From: (name withheld)
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 9:52 PM
To: Rabbi Joel Schwartzman
Subject: Re: Merchant Marine painting

Dear Rabbi:

Thanks for writing. I also respect the Jewish history of faith, as from it has sprung Christianity. For one to be a Christian and not see this does not know the Bible. 

I know the Jewish people have been hurt historically in the name of Christianity, and it saddens me. Jesus himself being Jewish would have condemned it in his name. Every Christian I know would feel the same; many of them who have studied Torah to deepen their faith, who regularly travel to Israel and partner with the Jewish people. 

We had to look up what a Supercessionist or Dominionist Christian is. These are not terms Christians know. Most Christians today — if they think of it at all — believe founders were inspired by their Judeo-Christian faith and people were drawn to the new world to have freedom of religion. Not that it means they make Christianity a state religion that everyone MUST follow. 

I wouldn’t be for mandatory anything either, nor ascribe to establishing a religion. I also know the Jesus statue is on private property. But I guess to me it’s lost its original meaning similar to the painting, and both stand more as a history lesson or work of art; hardly anything that is “forcing” faith on anybody today. 

The argument that the piece is meant to convert people today feels a bit outdated, even if it were actually put up for that reason. It would be better if a maritime museum that’s open to the public would take it rather than putting a curtain over a representation of our God. I don’t understand how it fulfills your argument of separation without removing it entirely. 

Hanging a curtain on it is offensive, and people of faith are allowed to have feelings about it, even if they are cadets or work for the government. By law they can express that also. 

Apart from how legal minds interpret the Constitution, it’s important to understand today’s Christian mind, too.

We are being targeted as a hate group, and these “victories” only seem to be something to shove in our faces as such. Yet, I don’t know a single Christian who would want to oppress anyone. 

But I could see a lot of folks today wanting to see Christians oppressed. We are being persecuted and killed everywhere around the world and we wonder if that’s possible here. 

So, an atheist coming along to say how horrible the Nativity is or that these symbols were designed to oppress people, it’s like listening to a foreign language. You may as well say Jesus is a white supremacist. It’s bewildering, and we know the Satanic baby next to baby Jesus is not a symbol of equality as much as it is mockery.

As far as the Christians seeing themselves as “Supercessionist,” I’ve heard hundreds of teachings within the church that don’t reflect this idea. People would say that the Gentiles became fellow heirs with the Jews through Christ. That we were “grafted in” with G-d’s chosen. Whoever says that the Gospel of Christ excludes the Jews, they don’t know the Bible. We do believe that the New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Old.

We love the Jewish people. Many of us sing songs in church with Jewish words, and try to recreate Jewish dances and music. Blow shofars. Wear prayer shawls. Some Christians are wild about their Jewish heritage and regularly pray for the peace of Israel. These comments on your site that are borderline bigoted do not represent Christianity in any way. These are not spiritually-minded people. 

I’ve asked four times how the organization there has had symbols of other religions taken down. No one has answered yet.

Blessings


Response from MRFF Supporter Rabbi Joel Schwartzman to (name withheld’s) response

On Jan 29, 2023, at 11:05 AM, Rabbi Joel Schwartzman wrote:

There are any number of statements in your email about which I could comment, but I intend to limit myself because of time and space. 

At the outset, I do not wish to enter into a “victimization” comparison.  It gets us nowhere, but I am ever amazed at how little protests I encounter on the part of American Christian clergy concerning the slaughter of Christians in, say, Nigeria or in the Middle East.  By the way, the fact is that the only Middle East country in which the number of Christians is growing is Israel.  What, for another example, has happened to the Christian community in Bethlehem is a travesty and a blatant crime.  Where is the movement to save and defend these people?  

We Jews are grateful for the material and political support of the Evangelical Christian community in the U.S. has demonstrated and which many still do toward Israel, but are ever dismayed by the resolutions and condemnations pouring forth from the Mainline Protestants concerning Israel.  The bias and unfounded falsities demonstrated by these groups is damaging to both them and us.

Changing subjects, I would contend that the “Judeo-Christian” heritage is mostly myth.  We do not share much in our different theologies or in our world views.  Jews do not (yet) have a messiah and many of us more liberal Jews do not subscribe to the coming of any messiah at all.  We rather contend that if we as individuals and as a collective humanity don’t work to bring about a Messianic Age, we may well find ourselves disappearing from the Earth altogether either through nuclear holocaust or Climate Change and by poisoning our Earth.

Judaism is a this-worldly religion.  We ultimately believe in deed over creed.  We believe that each human being has within themselves a propensity both for good and a propensity for evil.  We do not look to any outside source as the locus for evil, like a devil or Satan. We believe that we have free will to choose our directions and are thereby held accountable for what we do.  The honor that any person receives from their fellow humans is more important…more valuable…than wealth or self-garnered fame.  Whereas Orthodox Jews believe in a “World-to-Come,” a sort of grand yeshiva or school in the sky, as it were, more liberal Jews believe that the soul is immortal and returns to its Creator.  However, there are many of us who subscribe to none of this and believe that once one dies, that is the end of the matter.  I know that this flies in the face of Christian belief, but we do part company over the afterlife and we certainly don’t emphasize it as so many of the Christian faith do. Jews subscribe to what happens in this life and it is this world which is essential, not what may or may not happen in an afterlife.

What I am saying boils down to the fact that our orientations are, in many aspects, diametrically opposed.  Our values are different regarding sin, the emphasis on life verses death, a believe or lack therein in the agency of a messiah and our belief in deed over faith or creed.  Christians may put on the trappings of Jews, but unless they have studied Judaism’s approaches to these theological issues, they are only going through some external motions by which they think they are connecting with us.

I know that you believe that the New Testament fulfills the promises and prophesies of the Old.  We don’t use that terminology but call our Bible the Hebrew Scriptures or TANAK.  We obviously don’t subscribe to the idea of a “new covenant” (Testament means covenant in this context) for reasons I won’t go into.  You are certainly entitled to believe as you do. But there are passages from the New Testament which disturbingly are anti-Semitic and have caused tremendous damage to us Jews over time.  Thankfully, many of these verses have been subject to re-interpretation by both Protestant and Catholic sources…but they do remain. 

All of what I have written here does not directly pertain to the painting at the Merchant Marine Academy.  It is, however, background as to why Jews, specifically, feel excluded by its iconic content.  This isn’t a matter for us of this painting being a “work of art.”  It is a religious statement and as such doesn’t belong where it is hung. The answer isn’t necessarily to cover it up as offensive as that it is for you, but it does solve the problem for us.  Better that it be moved to a better location, a museum perhaps.  But where it is located is no better a statement than commanding cadets to engage in mandatory prayer or Bible study sessions.  Those are exclusive and, frankly, Constitutionally illegal.  Better that this federal institution not involve itself in excluding any of its cadets than to engage in doing so.

Beyond all this, we are free to disagree, but I want you to know that were you privy to the daily barrage of despicable, hateful and too often vulgar emails that the MRFF receives in the name of Christianity, I think that you would be appalled.  This does not include the death threats which are issued in the name of Jesus.  Generally, I write sarcastic and nasty things in response to these emails which bounce back to us because the writers lack the courage to identify themselves.  This was not the case with the respectful email you wrote. So, in your case, I have attempted a longer and more involved and respectful response.

Be well.  Stay well!

Rabbi Joel


Response from MRFF Board Member John Compere

On Jan 25, 2023, at 4:12 PM, John Compere wrote:

Thank you for the civility of your communication.

Please be advised that the US Constitution 1st Amendment prohibits our government (which includes the Merchant Marine Academy) from establishing, enforcing or endorsing a religion & requires government neutrality regarding religion (neither pro-religion nor anti-religion but religion-neutral). American religious freedom is a shield of protection for the right of all Americans (which includes Merchant Marines) to determine, enjoy & practice their own beliefs free from government favor or disfavor. It is never a sword of privilege to impose religion on Americans. It is unlawful for our secular government to purchase & place a large painting of Jesus in a secular government facility to proselytize Christianity.

Please be informed that the Military Religious Freedom Foundation is a civil rights advocacy organization for the military, nominated 7 times for the Nobel Peace Prize & composed of over 80% Christians. We have represented over 80,000 military men & women (95% of whom are Christians) who requested their right to religious freedom guaranteed them by the US Constitution be protected. We represent military members of all faiths & beliefs & will continue to do so when requested by them to protect their religious freedom.

Sincerely,

Brigadier General John Compere, US Army (Retired)
Disabled American Veteran (Vietnam Era)
Board Member, Military Religious Freedom Foundation


Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member James Currie

On Jan 25, 2023, at 4:28 PM, James Currie wrote:

Dear (name withheld)

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) and its Founder & President Michael L. “Mikey” Weinstein have asked me to respond to your recent email.

In 1787 a group of men we know as the “Founders” drafted a Constitution for a new republic. This document prohibits any religious test for office, thus establishing that ours is not a Christian nation. Indeed, if the men who drafted the Constitution had wanted a Christian republic, one can make the case that they would have said so and would have required that office-holders be members of the Christian faith. They did not do so, specifically rejecting this idea. This Constitution was adopted by the people of the several States and went into effect in 1789, creating the government we have today.

In 1791 some of these same Founders drafted the words of what we call today the “Bill of Rights.” The First Amendment of this Bill of Rights protects individual rights and places several prohibitions on the new government. You are undoubtedly familiar with some of these prohibitions, which provide for freedom of speech and of the press and of the right to peaceably assemble and of the right to petition Congress. This amendment also prohibits Congress (and the States) from enacting any law “respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” You got part of it right. The First Amendment would not allow Congress to establish a state religion, as was common in Europe. These men had seen the sectarian strife that state religions led to, and they didn’t want this poison to affect the new republic. But you don’t quite understand the First Amendment. It prohibits any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” That is a much broader restriction that simply prohibiting a state religion. So, what does this phrase mean?

Thomas Jefferson explained it quite well in a letter he sent to the Baptist congregation in Danbury, Conn., in 1802. Here’s what Jefferson wrote: “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people [that is, the First Amendment] which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.” Please read this at least twice. Please note that Jefferson writes of a “wall of separation between Church & State.” It is advocating for this “wall of separation” that is MRFF’s mission. It is the “wall of separation” that was violated at the Merchant Marine Academy (MMA), and it was MRFF’s support of that wall that caused Fox News to stir its watchers and cause them to come forth.

You must think of yourself as Christian, and you ignore the Constitution and applaud the Jesus painting at the MMA. But what if this had been a painting of Moses or Muhammed or the Buddha in the painting? Would you have been just as pleased? The fact is, the Merchant Marine painting should have no religious figure in it whatsoever, as the presence of such a figure violates the First Amendment prohibition against respecting an establishment of religion.

MRFF does not hate Jesus, or the Buddha, or Moses, or Muhammed or any other religious figure. It is not a hate organization at all. It is an organization dedicated to protecting military service members from violations of the First Amendment by zealous proselytizers of any religious persuasion. To date, it has served over 82,000 clients, some 95 percent of whom identify as Christian. This is what MRFF is and does, and you should be grateful that so many men and women give their time and effort to protecting our service members from those who would violate the Constitution.

Col. James T. Currie, US Army (Ret.), Ph.D.
Board of Advisors, Military Religious Freedom Foundation


Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Mike Farrell

On Thursday, January 26, 2023, 03:58:30 AM EST, Mike wrote:

Hi (name withheld),

Let me ease your troubled mind. We do not hate Jesus and we have no interest in punishing Christians. In fact, about 95% of those involved with the MRFF are Christians, some of them clergy.

We are denying no “tax-paying religious citizens” the ability to worship in public places. What a silly idea.

What motivates us is a desire to see the U.S. Military, like all parts of the U.S. Government, recognize and honor the importance and significance of the separation of Church and State.

You see, both the law and military regulations prohibit the support, or the appearance thereof, of one religion or belief system over all others in military facilities wherein women and men of all faiths and no faith are required to attend to their duties.

We have no problem with Christians or the followers and practitioners of any belief system. Certainly all members of the military are free to practice their faith in designated places of worship, if they so choose. But a representation or icon or artifact denoting one particular faith cannot be displayed in a facility wherein attendance of all is required. That amounts to an endorsement by the government. Your opinion to the contrary simply ignores the law and military regulation.

You, because you believe it serves your argument, would like to compare apples and oranges. However, Johns Hopkins, as I suspect you’re aware, is not a government facility. In fact, I also suspect you’re aware of the paucity of your entire argument but simply proceed because it somehow makes you feel more righteous when you can point to something that you can twist, enabling you to pretend that Christians are being persecuted.

This silly idea, that Christians are being persecuted in America, is a popular fantasy among Christian Nationalists and other Christian fundamentalists. I suspect it’s an organizing principle for the “one true faith” zealots and probably has something to do with a kind of need to demonstrate absolute fealty to the crucified Christ.

But that’s my own view. You’re welcome to yours, but don’t base it on the false assertions you’ve made here.

Mike Farrell
(MRFF Board of Advisors)


On Thursday, January 26, 2023, 10:01:24 AM EST, (name withheld) wrote:

Hey Mike. 

I kind of went over this in detail with the rabbi, so maybe you can get the email I sent him. John was also very nice, and maybe he would share my emails with you. You’re the 5th person who has emailed back, and the most  dismissive — which doesn’t support your stance of not having a negative or hateful bias. But I digress. 

It doesn’t seem you are an authority on what happens to Christians worldwide as much as you know the law. Nor can you comnent on people’s fears.

I go into this more with the rabbi. He seemed like a nice person and I have the utmost respect for the Jewish people, as they are God’s chosen to carry his Word that are the foundation of Christianity. I’m trying my best to  extend understanding and be understood.

So your demeaning and dismissive terms; judging my intent and character like I’m on a superiority trip (and zionist …?) is all very weird. 

This rhetoric only supports a bias I see and sense — and others on here as well, with some being real jerks in how they are expressing it to you, which is not Christian — and embarrassing.  

But your ideas about Christians are very outdated. I go into this more w the rabbi. Please ask him to share so that your own troubled mind can also be eased. 

Honestly, if you want to people to understand your mission and genuineness, you’re going to have to be kinder.

No Christian I know uses these terms. Or thinks in the manner you communicate. Pls read what I sent the rabbi. 

Blessings to you and yours.


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:04 AM (name withheld) wrote:

PS I forgot to add that no one has yet given examples of non Christian imagery (or whatever) your firm has managed to take down, cover up, etc. 

I’ve asked everyone so far to no avail.

Excuse the typos.


Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Mike Farrell

On Thursday, January 26, 2023, 12:50:40 PM EST, Mike wrote:

Hi (name withheld),

I’m personally tired of the nonsense thrown our way by people who make accusations, as you did, based on nothing but a lack of understanding of the true facts and an imagined sense of having their belief system under attack.

You, inferentially, of course, accuse me of having “a negative or hateful bias.” After coming at the MRFF the way you did, that takes a lot of gall. You not only “digress,”” you betray once again, your thin skin and your unwillingness to recognize how wrongheaded your approach is.

If you’re concerned about actual persecution against Christians in other parts of the world, I encourage you to lend your energies to organizations involved in that effort rather than pretending it’s happening here in America.

I’m glad you have had satisfying interactions with the rabbi and John, but if you’re looking to have a meaningful interaction I’d suggest you avoid larding your initial communication with misstatements, assumptions and snide inferences, as you did initially and have again here.

“Why do you hate Jesus so much?” is not a serious question. It’s an indictment disguised as a question. And what is one to make of your “(and zionist…?) jab? You

just can’t resist it, or so it appears. You claim to be ‘trying your best to extend understanding and be understood’ is contradicted by your attitude and your incorrect assumptions. I’d suggest you try harder.

Mike Farrell
(MRFF Board of Advisors)


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:07 (name withheld) wrote:

Hey Mike,

I’m not trying to be snide at all. 

I think trying to mindread my intentions as being something evil shows fear on your end also. I am sorry if you feel I’m merely trying to attack you. I am not. I did talk with rabbi about the initial feelings of hate toward Jesus. And why people likely responded so angrily. 

And no one has yet given examples of your work against any faith but Christians. I’ve asked about 6 times and that, honestly, would really ease my mind.

But I certainly did feel you attacked me initially, and my response is honest and genuine. I should have reread your origional response tho. You said zealots. Not zionist. These are not everyday terms for me so I mixed them up. There were other terms ppl used that I had to look up also, but I should have reread what you wrote. My bad.


Response from MRFF Advisory Board Member Mike Farrell

On Jan 26, 2023, at 11:35 AM, Mike wrote:

(name withheld),

Let me explain. We have involved ourselves in resolving problems with atheists and Satanists trying to put forth their ideology, just as we have with Muslims and those of other belief systems. It doesn’t get much attention because few people hear about it and fewer care.

The reason you are led to believe we only intervene when Christian overstepping takes place is that the vast majority of these problems arise from inappropriate Christian proselytizing. There are, apparently unknown to you, a great many Christians who quite ruthlessly pursue their agenda, which is to make America officially a Christian nation, to convert all ‘nonbelievers’, and to force on everyone the acceptance of their particular version of Christianity.

You mentioned earlier, I believe, that you found some of the attacks on the MRFF by loud and vulgar so-called Christians “embarrassing.” I think it’s more than that. I think it’s dangerous. And I think it represents the exact opposite of the true teachings of Jesus.

I hope that helps you better understand.

Mike Farrell
(MRFF Board of Advisors)


Share This Story

13 Comments

  1. JOSEPH THOMAS VITANZA January 26, 2023 at 4:06 pm

    Mr. Weinstein: I am a 1973 graduate of the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy. I guess because I kept my nose clean during my four years at Kings Point, I never had to be in Wiley Hall for any reason. I confess I didn’t even know the painting in question existed until I saw the e-mail sent out from the KP Alumni Association. On purely objective grounds I can see the point you’re trying to make regarding the Constitutionality of the painting hanging in a federal facility. However, it is a work of art that was painted in a different place and time. I was never torpedoed or forced to enter a lifeboat, but I think it would be safe to say, that the men depicted in the lifeboat, having just escaped a fiery death, would have been comforted by an apparition of Jesus Christ, even if they were Jews, Muslims, or atheists. However, once in my Naval Aviation career the single engine aircraft I was flying in as a flight student on a cross country mission, was struck by lightning and its engine power was immediately lost. My first thoughts were to say a few prayers, while the instructor pilot radioed Air Traffic Control for vectors to bail out. Miraculously, through a break in the clouds, an airfield became visible just below us, and we were able to glide in for a safe landing. Was that airfield appearance just luck, or an answer to my prayers? I don’t know, but I do know that I didn’t have to bail out of that crippled aircraft. The old saying goes, “There are no atheists in foxholes,” and being a former Academy graduate and veteran yourself, I am quite surprised that you would advocate the removal of any religious thought in the military.

  2. Ailan Chubb, USMMA Class of 1983 January 26, 2023 at 5:43 pm

    Dear Mr. Vitanza,

    I feel much of the difficulty in communications on this subject lies in not understanding that Jesus symbolism represents one thing to Christians, but quite another to non-Christians.

    Do you understand that Jesus symbolism has been used to harass those who are non-Christian? To many non-Christians, the message that depictions of Jesus Christ send is, “Your non-Christian beliefs //are not welcome.// For not embracing Jesus, you //are// going to hell.”

    This globe has a horrible history of persecuting those who are non-Christian. For example, the Inquisition and the Holocaust.

    I know these events were long ago. I know also that, if only in the name of physical safety, many non-Christians are ever vigilant for threats to themselves and family.

    I am aware too that the world has seen persecution of Christians. For example, the history of hatred for Catholics in this country is well-documented.

    Why would anyone want to make another feel uncomfortable for having non-Christian beliefs?

    Would you welcome a room with an enormous Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist symbol in Wiley Hall? If not, why not?

    What is wrong with instead, // simply // having a neutral government workplace? Why is this not a fair compromise to you?

    Forcing Jesus imagery on others is not the Christian way.

    Neither military regulations, civil service regulations, nor the MRFF advocate the removal of religious thought in the military. The military provides chapels. Religious jewelry is allowed in appropriate settings. I ask you to be factual in these discussions.

    I hope you agree that religious faith and religious culture are deeply important to many. To have one’s beliefs as a non-Christian be challenged as “unacceptable” can shake people to the core.

    I vote for government buildings free of religious symbols. I vote for doing what one swore to do: Support the Constitution, including the (No) Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, just like the midshipmen’s Naval Reserve and military officers’ oaths say. I vote for respecting each other’s religion and getting back to the creed that unites us all as Academy graduates: Service to the country.

  3. Jeff January 27, 2023 at 7:32 pm

    Nobody at MRFF has ever advocated for the removal of religious thought in the military. It’s about respecting the rights and religious beliefs of all the members of the service.

  4. Ironmoped January 28, 2023 at 8:46 pm

    So if you were miraculously, by divine intervention, given a break in the clouds with a visual on an airfield, couldn’t that same divine power have intervened to prevent you from getting hit by lightning in the first place?

    If the break you got was divine intervention, then God was just fucking with you and having a good laugh!

    He probably had a side bet going that you’d shit your pants! As a fellow pilot, yeah, I can see where that might happen (the shit your pants part).

    And, by the way, there ARE Atheists in foxholes. More today than there ever have been! Especially with the younger crowd.

    More and more are coming to realize that “In the beginning, Man created God!”

  5. Grey One Talks Sass January 29, 2023 at 11:20 pm

    Ok, I’ve read and reread the conversation more than twice.

    What sticks for me is the absolute certainty from those who want the painting to remain uncovered is no one in their circle would consider the subject inappropriate because everyone in their circle believes as they do.

    Not one ounce of empathy for someone who believes differently. Not one ounce of consideration or compassion for those who’ve been harmed because in the Christian defenders eyes Christianity can’t do harm.

    When I learned to walk a mile in my fellow humans shoes I learned how to see through their eyes, to accept that how I lived my life was alien to them, that my way didn’t work for everyone.

    Like a fish in water the original letter writer can’t see any harm in their beliefs because they live in that bubble. It’s always been their way or the highway to which many of my fellow citizens are saying no thanks, we will walk.

    Empathy; apparently it’s a super power. If that is correct, then this old grey one is a part of the Justice League.

    Parting shot: I’m snarky as all get out with the “fine” Nationalist Christians who come here to tell me and mine how we are going to suffer in their Old Timey End of Days review. In my world I don’t reward bad behavior and sticking one’s religion in everyone’s face is the height (for me that is) of incorrect actions. You want respect? Respect my rights too, not tromp them underfoot because “every knee will bend”. Not this knee. I will die first. I imagine the letter writer feels the same determination about their faith. As it should be, correct?

  6. Grey One Talks Sass January 30, 2023 at 9:41 pm

    Regarding the letter writers post script: “PS I forgot to add that no one has yet given examples of non Christian imagery (or whatever) your firm has managed to take down, cover up, etc.

    I’ve asked everyone so far to no avail.”

    That would be due to the evidence letter writer. At this time the only group of humans repeatedly breaking the law are Nationalist Christians. To a person their priority is Deity first, State (under their control) last.

    I know the letter writer would like to think us heathens are without morals… and the snark just wants to ooze out from there but that would be mean. I do my best not to be mean because I don’t like it when others are mean to me.

    Suffice it to say the original letter writer probably needs some self reflection, but I’m not holding my breath for them to do the work.

  7. Azriel Ben-Avraham February 1, 2023 at 3:57 pm

    When I read of Mikey and Rabbi Schwartzman wanting to remove all things Christian from our military, it reminds of the Jewish Sanhedrin during the time of Christ calling for His crucifixion. Mikey and Rabbi Schwartzman are the modern day Sanhedrin or anti-Christs.

    For Rabbi Schwartzman, there is an after life and you will not return to your Creator unless you have accepted Messiah Yeshua as your Lord and Savior. Also, there is a Jewish Messiah who is Messiah Yeshua, who has already come and will return again. Proof for a Jewish Messiah is found in the the Tanakh in Isaiah 53, Ezekiel and Zechariah, maybe he should reread those books again.

  8. Grey One Talks Sass February 1, 2023 at 6:23 pm

    Commentator above (Azriel) proves to be the poster child of why religion will finally be removed from the public square. But that’s not the topic.

    The topic is the Military and how they must remain neutral when it comes to faith or no faith.

    The vitriol from that person brings me to this afternoon. Mom and I were talking about why Jewish people are so hated. My idea was for land and money (I’m a follow the money kind of person). She mentioned the ‘killed Christ’ issue by pointing out it was the Romans who used the Jewish folk to do their dirty work. We concluded that we didn’t know and surmised those who hate the loudest don’t really know either. Jewish people exist and I guess that’s a crime.

    If Nationalist Christians would learn to share or how to keep their faith to the appropriate spaces… well, the MRFF wouldn’t be necessary. Since to a person every Nationalist Christian I know of has boundary issues and is unaware they have boundary issues the fight to keep our government/military spaces neutral continues.

    **So much hatred can’t be good for a person. I tried hating for a bit. Blech. Too much expended energy with little to no return**

  9. Karen the rock whisperer February 7, 2023 at 4:12 pm

    Wow, what a comment stream.

    Joseph Thomas Vitanza had a personal experience of escape from a difficult situation that he believes involved a deity–a belief that can’t be validated by any objective evidence–and therefore, military personnel, regardless of their own personal religious beliefs, must be subject to assembling beneath a giant painting representing his own version of a deity?

    Azriel Ben-Avraham needs to go off-tangent and preach at us?

    You both are absolutely entitled to your beliefs in things which can’t be validated but also can’t be demonstrated to be incorrect. But in attempting to stuff them down other people’s throats, you are being less than stellar citizens of our wonderful country, as is the original letter writer. As a taxpayer, I want the people serving in our military to be able to fully, enthusiastically, fulfill their oaths to the US Constitution without being pestered about their private beliefs. or getting oblique messages through officially-sanctioned artworks that their beliefs are wrong. Basic respect for others demands that.

  10. Jeff February 8, 2023 at 6:34 pm

    No surprise that the people putting down the work of the MRFF are responding to comments explaining and supporting the organization by repeating the ancient libels against Jews as being responsible for the death of Jesus and of being sinners condemned to hell. Same old story, different day.

  11. Ironmoped February 15, 2023 at 3:09 pm

    Jews represent 0.2% of the world’s population but comprise 22.4% of all Nobel laureates, 208 out of 930.

    If Jesus (Jewish son of Joseph) were still around I’m guessing that number would be 209?

  12. Jeff February 16, 2023 at 7:19 am

    Ironmoped: true, but to the bigot, that’s just more evidence of “Jewish domination” in a bad sense. They’ll never admit that any Jewish person ever is good enough, loyal enough to the country, etc., to be acceptable.

  13. Ironmoped February 19, 2023 at 6:44 am

    I think you have to keep reminding them that their “Savior” in their preposterous story is Jewish!

    The”Creator of the Universe” knocks up a virgin Jewish bride to give them a “Savior!”

    Someone to vicariously blame when life doesn’t go their way and they don’t live happily ever after.

    2000 year old fable stolen from Greek mythology!

Leave A Comment