stopping use of bible verses on weapons
Accessibility Notice
This post was created on the previous version of the MRFF website, and may not be fully accessible to users of assistive technology. If you need help accessing this content, please reach out via email.As a retired US Army Sergeant Major I am incensed that you are happy that you stooped that Corporation from putting bible verses on weapons. Some versus inspire soldiers to keep their faith in the face of the enemies of our country. It is tough enough to be a soldier, even tougher to be a Christian soldier.
To remove any Christian references is criminal. I have never met an atheist in a foxhole in a firefight.
(name withheld)
Dear (name withheld),
This happened over 6 years ago and I am surprised that you brought this up.
The most important ruling concerning any religious statement is that our military must obey the laws of the country we are fighting in.
CENTCOM issued General Order Number 1A (GO-1A) on December 19, 2000 which laid the grown rules for all military personnel:
Title: Prohibited Activities for Department of Defense Personnel Present Within The United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) AOR.
Purpose: To identify conduct that is prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and discipline of all forces in the USCENTCOM AOR.
Authority: Title 10, United States Code, Section 164(C) and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), Title 10, United States Code, Sections 801-940.
- Proselytizing of any religion, faith or practice.
http://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/2013/08/GeneralOrderGO-1A.pdf
Though you believe that our soldiers – who are of different faiths or no faith – need scripture on their rifle sights “to inspire soldiers to keep their faith in the face of the enemies of our country” means that Christians can lose their faith unless they have a scripture engraved on their rifle sights in order to kill people. If this is true then they have a problem.
We gave these rifles with the scriptures to Iraqi’s fighting with us and it gave the impression to them that the war we were fighting was Christian based; a modern day crusade against them.
Not only were the inscribed verses against the CENTCOM Order but it was also against our Constitution and Supreme Court rulings.
Retired Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor said “We do not count heads before enforcing the First Amendment.”
In other words, the majority doesn’t rule over the minority where First Amendment rights are concerned.
She also said “The Establishment Clause prohibits government from making adherence to a religion relevant in any way to a person’s standing in the political community. Government can run afoul of that prohibition in two principal ways. One is excessive entanglement with religious institutions, which may interfere with the independence of the institutions, give the institutions access to government or governmental powers not fully shared by nonadherents of the religion, and foster the creation of political constituencies defined along religious lines. The second and more direct infringement is government endorsement or disapproval of religion. Endorsement sends a message to nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community. Disapproval sends the opposite message.”
Her statement is based on past SCOTUS Establishment Clause rulings regarding entanglement of any government entity with religion:
Jefferson’s concept of “separation of church and state” first became a part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878). In that case, the court examined the history of religious liberty in the US, determining that while the constitution guarantees religious freedom, “The word ‘religion’ is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted.” The court found that the leaders in advocating and formulating the constitutional guarantee of religious liberty were James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. Quoting the “separation” paragraph from Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists, the court concluded that, “coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured.
In 1878 “separation of church and state” became part of the Establishment Clause by law.
The Supreme Court heard the Lemon v. Kurtzman case in 1971 and ruled in favor of the Establishment Clause. Subsequent to this decision, the Supreme Court has applied a three-pronged test to determine whether government action comports with the Establishment Clause, known as the Lemon Test:
Government action violates the Establishment Clause unless it:
1. has a significant secular (i.e., non-religious) purpose,
2. does not have the primary effect of advancing or inhibiting religion
3. does not foster excessive entanglement between government and religion
Parker v. Levy:
“This Court has long recognized that the military is, by necessity, a specialized society separate from civilian society… While the members of the military are not excluded from the protection granted by the First Amendment, the different character of the military community and of the military mission requires a different application of those protections. … The fundamental necessity for obedience, and the consequent necessity for imposition of discipline, may render permissible within the military that which would be constitutionally impermissible outside it… Speech [in any form] that is protected in the civil population may nonetheless undermine the effectiveness of response to command. If it does, it is constitutionally unprotected.” (Emphasis added) Parker v. Levy, 417 U.S. 733, 1974
The Trijicon verses violated CENTCOM Order Number 1A, the Constitution, Reynolds v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878), Lemon v. Kurtzman, the Lemon Test and Parker v. Levy.
“Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov’t in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”
James Madison Detached Memoranda, circa 1820
We ONLY step in when a soldier or soldiers complain to us of the trampling of the Constitution, Supreme Court rulings and military laws, when their chain of command ignores them.
“I have never met an atheist in a foxhole in a firefight.”
Even though you’ve never met one, we have. Many of our clients who are atheists have fought and done multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. To say they don’t exist is demeaning to those who have fought for your right to practice your religion.
Pastor Joan
MRFF Advisory Board Member
You ever been in a firefight?
(name withheld)
Dear (name withheld),
What a stupid question. In my day, females weren’t allowed in combat and just because I wasn’t, it doesn’t make me less of a patriot.
My father, uncles, brother and son-in-law (who are all atheists) did. I heard many horror stories and the reasons for their numerous medals.
I also worked in the military under contract, took care of the families of the soldiers deployed and took care of the funeral arrangements of those KIA. We were in close contact with the Rear Detachment every day and knew more about what was going on than the news told.
Joan Slish
(name withheld)
Dear (name withheld),
You assume too much. They were in heavy combat in WWII, the Vietnam War and the Iraqi War and relied on their buddies to have their backs…not God. First Amendment rights are guaranteed to soldiers of all beliefs or none, not just Christians. Apparently you didn’t read the laws I gave you concerning religious neutrality in the military or are choosing to ignore them. We try to educate people and don’t mind a civilized debate but when someone sinks to ad hominem attacks the conversation is over because we really don’t care about what you think or your opinion. Any response will be deleted upon arrival without opening it.
Joan Slish
Did you ever think that your censorship was akin to the censorship used by tyrants like Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin? That any infringement on any Constitutionally guarantee
(name withheld)
Dear (name withheld),
Our laws (not our censorship) say they can’t be on official military weapons. If you don’t like it I suggest you contact CENTCOM and your representatives in Congress to change the laws. To place the blame on us by conjuring up the likes of Hitler and Stalin is ludicrous. DoD, Congress and the Supreme Court make the laws. We uphold them.
Joan Slish
Recent Posts
- April 25, 2024 | No comments
- April 21, 2024 | 1 comment
- April 15, 2024 | No comments
This would be a perfect verse to put on weapons – “Of David. Blessed be the LORD, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;” Psalm 144:1
Show us more how you
Ignore the Constitution
Traitor preacher man
Connie,
Maybe you should look up the qualifications for traitor and I do not think I qualify. I think the term traitor better suits Hillary Clinton, shall we name her illegal and traitorous acts, like Benghazi, allowing an American ambassador be mutilated, sexually molested and killed along with 4 SEAL’s as well. Oh then there is her unconstitutional server in her home which she ran confidential emails through that were hacked. Then there was Whitewater years ago and how several connections to the Clintons ended up missing into thin air. Best thing for Hillary is to stop her continual lying and come clean so that we can find her guilty and then hang her on the south lawn of the White House televised live by Fox News, since the liberal stations would not do that.
Oh, here is another one who qualifies, Bowie Bergdahl, who walked off his base looking for the Taliban in which several other of his comrades were killed looking for him. He deserves the rope also.
Another example is Benedict Arnold. Also, there is enough to have Obama hung too right next to Hillary on the south lawn.
As I understand
It, evidence is needed
To determine guilt.
Troll, traitor, Rev Bob
Doing his best to deflect from
His traitorous words
Tom O is waiting
Citations listed, questions
Ready. Where are you?
traitor: a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
Examples: You stated in multiple places you would turn your back on the US if relations between Israel and the US became strained. And you stated in multiple places you do not respect the Constitution and Bill of Rights, specifically where state is on one side and church is on the other.
So tell me again how you are not a traitor? Nice deflection by the way. None of your talking points have evidence otherwise people would already be incarcerated. Guess you skipped critical thinking skills while attending that “top notch” school you attended.
Connie,
Either you are blind or really stupid! There is more than enough evidence to arrest, so not sure why the FBI is waiting unless Obama is threatening them in some way, which is one thing he likes to do.
Connie, I believe in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, the only thing I object about it is the 1st Amendment regarding religious freedom and expression. I am a firm believer in the 2nd Amend the right to bear arms. Do I observe the speed limit, of course not, do you, does anyone? The most I go over the speed limit is 5- 10mph to keep the flow of traffic going and people are still passing me and usually local police give you a 5-10 mph leeway before they will ticket you.
Every Christian needs to support Israel and if ever a war was to break out between the two nations, most likely started by the U.S., Christians need to side with Israel unless they wanted to be cursed by God for not blessing His chosen people.
“There is more than enough evidence to arrest, so not sure why the FBI is waiting unless Obama is threatening them in some way.” The Constitution says the president cannot be arrested by any law enforcement agency. If Obama is so obviously guilty (of what specifically), why haven’t your political allies in Congress started impeachment proceedings?
I’m stupid? You asked for a definition – which I provided. You asked for examples – which I provided. You are a traitor, by definition.
I asked for evidence regarding Hilary which you did not provide. In fact, you deflected (again) and called me a pejorative*. Logical thought there Rev Bob. Face it, you are losing to a girl. That has to hurt. :D
My questions to you Rev Bob – not that I expect you to answer…
The FBI has repeatedly stated Hilary did nothing wrong. Where is your proof she is lying?
You state President Obama likes to threaten people – where is your evidence? It’s been my experience that anyone who has baby magic (pics are all over the net to prove my claim) doesn’t threaten, he communicates. Perhaps you are confusing facts you don’t like with threats?
Rev Bob – Your wishful thinking has you believing in paranoid delusions. You might want to get that checked.
*pejorative – a word expressing contempt or disapproval
Tom O – apparently President Obama is guilty of being an amazing President while being black. I know – I’m being sarcastic but the ugliness the Obama’s have had to survive makes me ill. Americans are better than this – at least I used to think so. Now?
Yeah, now I’m not sure.
Hate is hate, and I will not participate.
How would Rev Bob feel about putting these quotes from his favorite book on US military weapons?
“Thou shalt not kill”
“Blessed are the peacemakers”
“Turn the other cheek”
“The meek shall inherit the earth”
Connie,
Maybe you should watch this video – Robert Spencer – Hillary Clinton’s Record
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCQWaV2hSwY
And this one – Hillary Clinton: A Career Criminal – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kypl1MYuKDY Hillary is a serial criminal, serial liar!
Still waiting for Rev Bob to tell us what crimes Obama has allegedly committed, and why his political allies in Congress haven’t started impeachment proceedings. Apparently he has no comment about the bible quotes in my last comment either.
Rev Bob, what about the traitorous acts that Oliver North did in selling illegal weapons and using the profits to fund the Contra War in Nicaragua? Or Nixon sabotaging the peace talks so he could become president and the same thing with Reagan making a deal with Iran not to release the hostages until he got elected?
Rev Bob, Oliver North and the CIA help import cocaine during the 1980s to fund the Contra War and the CIA also imported heroin during the Vietnam War. Who are the real traitors?
Connie, Tom O.
For schmucks (yes, that’s deliberate pejorative) like “Rev” Bob, Barack Obama is guilty of treason (but the Constitution says “High Crimes and Misdemeanors”) because he’s obviously a SECRET MUSLIM who wants ISIS to take over the U.S. [snark]. “Rev” Bob is paranoid and delusional. He really believes that the Almighty will destroy us if we don’t kow-tow to Netanyahu and bend over so Binyamin can f*ck us in the ass. No, I don’t blindly support Israel – or any other ally.
I am amused by the idea that one has not ever seen an atheist in and foxhole during a firefight. First how would one know? As a Marine no one ever thought to ask me what my religious beliefs were in Viet Nam and we were shelled mortared and rocketed many times and I never found the need at the time to call upon any god of goddess. I never found it to be all that frightening if one stayed in a trench or foxhole unless needed.
I cannot ever remember ever hearing another young Marine talk much about religion, though there was a lot of talk about women, sex, and body parts. Sports, cars, and drinking were other major subjects.
We listened to Hanoi Hanna, because she had better music than what was played on the military radio stations, but her propaganda was lousy and laughable to us. We found no reason why we would ever believe her, we did not always believe what our military told us. We were already aware that our CIA was more interesting in the Golden Triangle and opium, than the war, hell that was mainly what Air America was about, moving drugs.
But no Marines were not commonly preaching at fellow Marines back then. No I did not become religious until afterward, and started with Buddhism.
Angela,
No, God will not destroy us if we do not kow tow as you say to Netanyahu, by the way he would make a better president that both Trump or Hillary!
God may judge the United States if we every turn our backs on the nation of Israel no matter who the prime minister is there! We and the rest of the world more to Israel than many realize. Cell phone technology was created in Israel along with the thumb drive you use in your computer. Windows XP and NT technology was created by Microsoft Israel. The chair that Stephen Hawkins uses and keeps him alive was developed in Israel, yet he wants to boycott products that come out of Israel!
Yes I will blindly support our ally Israel, because they are God’s chosen people and because they will always have our back.
“Cell phone technology was created in Israel along with the thumb drive you use in your computer. Windows XP and NT technology was created by Microsoft Israel.”
No Rev Bob, the cell phone technology was started in the good old USA by an American named Martin “Marty” Cooper. And for your information Microsoft Israel is part of the American company named Microsoft. Of course, Microsoft developed its operations in places like Israel because they are too cheap to invest in America so why should the USA support Israel when the American people are not getting from American corporations who send their operations overseas? It is about time American corporations re-invest in America. After all, charity begins at home, does it Rev Bob?